EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
FiF said:
Rather than policing it with a person I was thinking more of a system where an XS 'parking charge' is automatically levied if a vehicle is left occupying a parking space after it's charged up, or at least with a grace period tacked on the end.
Exactly. There are electronic solutions, just like there are if you left your car connected to a public charging point for 2 days.braddo said:
FiF said:
Rather than policing it with a person I was thinking more of a system where an XS 'parking charge' is automatically levied if a vehicle is left occupying a parking space after it's charged up, or at least with a grace period tacked on the end.
Exactly. There are electronic solutions, just like there are if you left your car connected to a public charging point for 2 days.https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/support/charging/super...
EddieSteadyGo said:
I think the fashion element is an interesting point. When your dishwasher breaks, or you need a new hoover, assuming I was happy with the old one, I would just usually buy the same one again. But I agree, with cars it is a bit different.
I'd would like to replace my model 3 as it is over three years old, but I'm not rushing to get a new model 3, even though I think it is the probably the best car for my needs. I'd quite like something different, and if I saw a 'cheap' deal for something else I might be tempted. But on the other hand, I like all of the things about Tesla, including the supercharging network, ease of use, reliability, efficiency, performance etc etc. Objectively, nothing much competes with the overall package imo.
Indeed. Tesla are up against competitors who still, mostly, seem to be working on a "4 years then facelift then new model after next 3 years" 7 year model cycle. Tesla might think they are somehow different and can get away with 12-15 year model cycles. Maybe they are, maybe they are not.I'd would like to replace my model 3 as it is over three years old, but I'm not rushing to get a new model 3, even though I think it is the probably the best car for my needs. I'd quite like something different, and if I saw a 'cheap' deal for something else I might be tempted. But on the other hand, I like all of the things about Tesla, including the supercharging network, ease of use, reliability, efficiency, performance etc etc. Objectively, nothing much competes with the overall package imo.
Constantly fiddling with and facelifting the same cars didn't work out too well for Rover in the end!
Ankh87 said:
As for making every space a charging space, that would mean there's less car parking spaces as you need to put the charging machine somewhere. If spaces are back to back like most are, then where does this charger fit? Most spaces these days are barely big enough for a normal size car.
A slow charger is basically just a bollard. Plenty of them in car parks. My employer has Podpoint chargers on every parking space in a couple of our offices. Mounted on the walls they take no room at all.
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
I’d be careful there.Is suspect that vanishingly few petrol cars will retain much value beyond their utility use in the medium to long term. I doubt any mainstream hot hatch will be seen as special enough.
The number of people motivated to run a Focus when performance EVs are below 10k used, offer vastly better performance and minimal running costs, purely out of nostalgia will be small enough not to support values.
You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
monkfish1 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
I’d be careful there.Is suspect that vanishingly few petrol cars will retain much value beyond their utility use in the medium to long term. I doubt any mainstream hot hatch will be seen as special enough.
The number of people motivated to run a Focus when performance EVs are below 10k used, offer vastly better performance and minimal running costs, purely out of nostalgia will be small enough not to support values.
You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
If ICE will have a zev sales limit and a ban, supply will be lower than demand.
If EVs won’t sell because people don’t want them in the numbers suggested by then EV mandate, supply of EVs will exceed demand. Obsolescence in EV tech will also be a factor.
Given the option between a V8 Jag and a Tesla M3 purely as a long term investment I suspect I’d favour the Jag for the above reasons.
Limiting supply increases price quite simply. Basic economics?
monkfish1 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
I’d be careful there.Is suspect that vanishingly few petrol cars will retain much value beyond their utility use in the medium to long term. I doubt any mainstream hot hatch will be seen as special enough.
The number of people motivated to run a Focus when performance EVs are below 10k used, offer vastly better performance and minimal running costs, purely out of nostalgia will be small enough not to support values.
You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
I think those desirable EVs are probably a few years away as new purchases, so probably 6-7 years away as used purchases.
With a few exceptions, most of the stuff currently available are SUV / Crossover vehicles - nothing very desirable apart from low running costs.
From a design perspective, a lot of it is already looking very dated in a way that last generation hot hatches, sports saloons and premium SUVs just don’t.
i called called to go to Lommel in Belgium at short notice, leaving monday morning for tuesday morning, and then drive back at the end of the day.
Fortuitously, i did it in the wifes corsa, (ute currently under repair
)
Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to sit around waiting to charge my car, on what was, apart from the need for toilet stops, a non stop drive there and back, what surprised me were just how many motorway service stations had no charging facilities.
Unlike in the UK, these european types put up handy signs 2 km before showing what facilities are available. Which includes electric charging, many of which had a red cross through it, denoting not available.
Before anyone starts, not trying to prove a point, just genuinely surpised how many big services had no charging points.
Fortuitously, i did it in the wifes corsa, (ute currently under repair
)Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to sit around waiting to charge my car, on what was, apart from the need for toilet stops, a non stop drive there and back, what surprised me were just how many motorway service stations had no charging facilities.
Unlike in the UK, these european types put up handy signs 2 km before showing what facilities are available. Which includes electric charging, many of which had a red cross through it, denoting not available.
Before anyone starts, not trying to prove a point, just genuinely surpised how many big services had no charging points.
CheesecakeRunner said:
Ankh87 said:
As for making every space a charging space, that would mean there's less car parking spaces as you need to put the charging machine somewhere. If spaces are back to back like most are, then where does this charger fit? Most spaces these days are barely big enough for a normal size car.
A slow charger is basically just a bollard. Plenty of them in car parks. My employer has Podpoint chargers on every parking space in a couple of our offices. Mounted on the walls they take no room at all.
sturge7878 said:
monkfish1 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
I’d be careful there.Is suspect that vanishingly few petrol cars will retain much value beyond their utility use in the medium to long term. I doubt any mainstream hot hatch will be seen as special enough.
The number of people motivated to run a Focus when performance EVs are below 10k used, offer vastly better performance and minimal running costs, purely out of nostalgia will be small enough not to support values.
You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
If ICE will have a zev sales limit and a ban, supply will be lower than demand.
If EVs won’t sell because people don’t want them in the numbers suggested by then EV mandate, supply of EVs will exceed demand. Obsolescence in EV tech will also be a factor.
Given the option between a V8 Jag and a Tesla M3 purely as a long term investment I suspect I’d favour the Jag for the above reasons.
Limiting supply increases price quite simply. Basic economics?
Short term, id agree, ICE prices will go up as supply is restricted. Basic economics as you say.
Long term, its a dead duck. Along with ICE vehicles. The government will find a way to get everyone in an EV, even if its them buying one for you, such is the madness. In wales, where i am, so long as your income is below £31k, you can have £40k of work done to your old inefficent house an update, at ZERO expense to yourself. So "giving" free cars out isnt as daft as it first seems. Yes, i know its the economics of the mad house, but that where we are.
In the meantime, if you fancy an F type, get it now and enjoy. Just dont do it as an investment.
DonkeyApple said:
BricktopST205 said:
I think I need to get an end of line Focus ST. Will most likely hold its money really well in the long term!
Everyone who loves ICE and wants to keep using it for pleasure just needs to have begun planning how they will do that. Most people will just keep their head in the sand and only surface to whinge about how the prices of old Focus STs have risen too far. Others will just be enjoying their Focus ST which they paid bugger all for and have looked after intelligently. I'm quite tempted by the GR Yaris as it could be a great ICE classic, seems well built and won't take up much space.
Im just struggling with the work and cost involved in building my last big project, with a V8 in it, given everything thats going on in the world, and future government "meddling". Its probably a 3 year project as it is. Who knows what things will like by then. Will i even be able to put it through an IVA test?
The existing fleet, well ive already got it anyway, so it can stay.
Edited by monkfish1 on Wednesday 8th May 19:21
monkfish1 said:
Bricktop said as a "long term" investment.
Short term, id agree, ICE prices will go up as supply is restricted. Basic economics as you say.
Long term, its a dead duck. Along with ICE vehicles. The government will find a way to get everyone in an EV, even if its them buying one for you, such is the madness. In wales, where i am, so long as your income is below £31k, you can have £40k of work done to your old inefficent house an update, at ZERO expense to yourself. So "giving" free cars out isnt as daft as it first seems. Yes, i know its the economics of the mad house, but that where we are.
In the meantime, if you fancy an F type, get it now and enjoy. Just dont do it as an investment.
Realistically, the majority of the public aren't *that* interested in cars on an engineering level.Short term, id agree, ICE prices will go up as supply is restricted. Basic economics as you say.
Long term, its a dead duck. Along with ICE vehicles. The government will find a way to get everyone in an EV, even if its them buying one for you, such is the madness. In wales, where i am, so long as your income is below £31k, you can have £40k of work done to your old inefficent house an update, at ZERO expense to yourself. So "giving" free cars out isnt as daft as it first seems. Yes, i know its the economics of the mad house, but that where we are.
In the meantime, if you fancy an F type, get it now and enjoy. Just dont do it as an investment.
When the stereotypes, hyperbole, and scaremongering subsides, I fully expect a large lump of people will actually try/buy an EV and realise it is light years ahead of a little petrol car with a sewing machine sounding engine. They'll probably then realise they should have done it years ago.
It's a similar kind of reality/ignorance around things like the new Renault 5. Anti-EV people had a real fuss about the "Renault 5 name being ruined by an EV", as if the R5 turbo was a) any good, and b) the only one available. They made 5.5 million R5s, and less than 10k of them were anything 'special' (turbos and what not). That's because the vast, vast majority of car-buyers don't want any of the stuff that a small proportion of motor-enthusiasts want. That is the issue on PH and threads like this - the only ICE cars that will be desirable or appreciate in value will be the limited ones that appeal to a small subset of people who specifically want that technology.
Glosphil said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
Ankh87 said:
As for making every space a charging space, that would mean there's less car parking spaces as you need to put the charging machine somewhere. If spaces are back to back like most are, then where does this charger fit? Most spaces these days are barely big enough for a normal size car.
A slow charger is basically just a bollard. Plenty of them in car parks. My employer has Podpoint chargers on every parking space in a couple of our offices. Mounted on the walls they take no room at all.
The actual issue is current supply. The amount of electricity that can be supplied to a point is the only factor that will determine how many chargers are worth installing.
But what's also being forgotten is that the majority of people with EVs won't be fannying about plugging them in when doing the shop because they don't need to. It's just a need for those with no other means in twenty years time.
monkfish1 said:
Whilst not in the habit of agreeing with old 740t he is right here. As i said to somebody suggesting and buying a F type jag.
You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
I completely disagree. I bought a GR86 last summer. One of only ~1000 ish cars to make it to these shores. You surely have to bonkers. Thats not going to be an investment. Its not going to hold money long term, nor almost any ICE car.
Once EV becomes mainstream, and running a retrol cart becomes more difficult due to lack of easy supply of petrol, it will quickly become worthless. A quaint museam piece maybe, valuable, no.
There must be a thousand different ways to invest that much money that make way more sense.
If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
BricktopST205 said:
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
Even with increasing numbers of cars on UK roads we've seen massive decline in forecourts. So whilst I wouldn't expect a shortage of fuel, you might well find there are far fewer locations.
BricktopST205 said:
I completely disagree. I bought a GR86 last summer. One of only ~1000 ish cars to make it to these shores.
If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
No one is buying an EV expecting it to retain its value. The idea is to use it and then recycle it in 10-15 years.If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
For petrol cars the number of people who want one as a toy is so tiny and will be getting smaller that only a small number of rare and desirable cars have any chance of retaining their value. Add in the likely increased cost and obstacles to using one and prices are only going one way.
Sorry to break it to you, but good as a GR86 may be, it’s no future classic to invest in. There just aren’t enough people who care about petrol engines for that to work.
740EVTORQUES said:
BricktopST205 said:
I completely disagree. I bought a GR86 last summer. One of only ~1000 ish cars to make it to these shores.
If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
No one is buying an EV expecting it to retain its value. The idea is to use it and then recycle it in 10-15 years.If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
For petrol cars the number of people who want one as a toy is so tiny and will be getting smaller that only a small number of rare and desirable cars have any chance of retaining their value. Add in the likely increased cost and obstacles to using one and prices are only going one way.
Sorry to break it to you, but good as a GR86 may be, it’s no future classic to invest in. There just aren’t enough people who care about petrol engines for that to work.
Clearly the run of the mill everyday vehicles will diminish in numbers markedly. Again it has always been so. However there will still be those interested in them even if some of the 'enthusiasts' on here aren't. For example points to the Festival of the Unexceptional. Again as always looking after an example properly helps in attractiveness, though not forgetting there are those who derive greatest pleasure from rescuing a wreck.
Also it's rewarding to see the level of interest from young enthusiasts at events like Bicester Scramble. Personally think some on here are too jaded and cynical for their own good, maybe even the odd one who needs a '?' after the moniker enthusiast.
BricktopST205 said:
I completely disagree. I bought a GR86 last summer. One of only ~1000 ish cars to make it to these shores.
If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
If anything it is the current EV cars that will be worthless as the technology ten years from now will be light years ahead of what it is today. Whereas my one of 1000 will be seen as a last of its kind and be worth more to the enthusiast who will want to still enjoy driving.
Their will never be a lack of fuel for at least 20-30 years from now. Thankfully by then I will be retired.
What were you saying previously about people having no idea how the real world works?
When the world becomes an EV/Hydrogen-powered land of SUVs and other dull-mobiles, petrol is £3 a litre, petrol stations are fewer and farther between and the driving enthusiast-nerds such as us on these pages are looking for their hit of old-school ICE nostalgia, I can assure you that they will not be searching the classifieds for a 2023 year Toyota - limited edition or not.
Truly high end cars will be viewed like art (they arguably already are) but the ICE cars of now and the late 20th Century will be hobby toys reserved for a select few enthusiasts. They are not an investment.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff