Miscreants on a Train
Discussion
MKnight702 said:
I would call a potentially armed youth making threats to a member of the public, an emergency. At what point would you classify it as an emergency, when he threatens a member of the public, when he shows that he possibly has a weapon, when he pulls out a weapon, when he brandishes a weapon, when he stabs someone with a weapon, or as the person dies on the floor of the train?
As for the Guard/Inspector I woudn't expect them to act, however, if they had some way to usher the other passengers to another carriage and lock the miscreant in to the carriage alone then call ahead to the next station I would be happy.
When I see a weapon.As for the Guard/Inspector I woudn't expect them to act, however, if they had some way to usher the other passengers to another carriage and lock the miscreant in to the carriage alone then call ahead to the next station I would be happy.
craigjm said:
Do we actually schedule jail in this country these days rather than be taken straight there from court? Something new for minor crimes?
Yes, and no it's not new. People are often called back for sentencing following conviction and quite a lot of them are told to bring a bag with them.
Greendubber said:
Of course you were, however you're missing the point again and again that you're not 'sticking it' to the cops by not wanting to assist.
You're just sticking it to any victims of crime that might have benefited form your evidence and giving any scumbags an advantage to getting off. So well done!
I’m not trying to “stick it” to anyone. I’m trying protect myself from the antics of the police. Nothing more.You're just sticking it to any victims of crime that might have benefited form your evidence and giving any scumbags an advantage to getting off. So well done!
And if any scumbags were to get off as a result, that’s on the police.
NRG1976 said:
Rather be a coward than a dead hero 
Yeah this is it isn't it. I have every sympathy as the urge to repeatly slap the scrotes would be mighty, however the question is what have you got to lose vs what have they got to lose and I bet almost every time the likes of us would lose more.
Plus, do you really want to risk being stabbed if they do have something? Sometimes you just have to take a deep breath and think about it logically. hard as that is when emotions are boiling.
Pick your battles. Being a pretty hard northern type I'm not opposed to the odd straightener although I'm long retired from all the nonsense that was around when we were younger I'm certainly not scared of anyone but I would have left this situation well alone. You can be as hard as you like and get your throat slashed very easily.
Back in the day (night clubs) I was threatened to be stabbed on a couple of occasions but 20 years ago it was rare and quite honestly I never took it seriously. Now I would be very cautious of any potential that that someone could have a knife. There are more examples but reminds me of this
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk...
There's not an awful lot you can do to protect yourself in this situation hence leave it alone. The chances of someone backing you up if it kicked off are virtually nil as well.
Back in the day (night clubs) I was threatened to be stabbed on a couple of occasions but 20 years ago it was rare and quite honestly I never took it seriously. Now I would be very cautious of any potential that that someone could have a knife. There are more examples but reminds me of this
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk...
There's not an awful lot you can do to protect yourself in this situation hence leave it alone. The chances of someone backing you up if it kicked off are virtually nil as well.
My son is an accomplished athlete and sometimes has the benefit of a really great coach. The athletes travel a lot in their teams to international competitions on the European circuit. Picture this.....
The coach looks a bit like Idris Elba for starters. With a group of about 8 teenage athletes and another coach in Germany. At a railway station, got to go about 8 stops to the competition venue.
Train arrives. First coach and the teenagers get on, just as a 6 Neo Nazi types are getting off. They clock 'Idris' and start giving him bother, stopping him from getting on the train. The doors shut, the train starts to leave the platform. The kids are now very concerned at the situation but the train is in motion. They see punches being thrown with 'Idris' getting surrounded.
They decide to get off at the next stop and get the next train back. Being Germany, the trains are frequent and on time. Within a few minutes, they are getting back into the station and get off the train. They are on the other side of the track now.
They get off the train to find 'Idris' chasing the last Neo Nazi that is still able to move/is conscious. He has dealt with the other 5 who are either dazed, out of it, or trying to get back on their feet and away.
So....Idris, yes he's a tough black guy. He was also a PE instructor in the British Army, and represented GB in two Olympic Games. He's as cool as anything, sharp, and nerves of steel. The full on...positive mental attitude. A legend in his sport. The kids still talk about this today.
The coach looks a bit like Idris Elba for starters. With a group of about 8 teenage athletes and another coach in Germany. At a railway station, got to go about 8 stops to the competition venue.
Train arrives. First coach and the teenagers get on, just as a 6 Neo Nazi types are getting off. They clock 'Idris' and start giving him bother, stopping him from getting on the train. The doors shut, the train starts to leave the platform. The kids are now very concerned at the situation but the train is in motion. They see punches being thrown with 'Idris' getting surrounded.
They decide to get off at the next stop and get the next train back. Being Germany, the trains are frequent and on time. Within a few minutes, they are getting back into the station and get off the train. They are on the other side of the track now.
They get off the train to find 'Idris' chasing the last Neo Nazi that is still able to move/is conscious. He has dealt with the other 5 who are either dazed, out of it, or trying to get back on their feet and away.
So....Idris, yes he's a tough black guy. He was also a PE instructor in the British Army, and represented GB in two Olympic Games. He's as cool as anything, sharp, and nerves of steel. The full on...positive mental attitude. A legend in his sport. The kids still talk about this today.
BTP called yesterday. In a nutshell, she said that as there is no audio on the CCTV it will be my word against theirs. I asked if they have the footage and if they can see the body language of both youths. She said no, but will put in a request.
This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
- details
Glassman said:
BTP called yesterday. In a nutshell, she said that as there is no audio on the CCTV it will be my word against theirs. I asked if they have the footage and if they can see the body language of both youths. She said no, but will put in a request.
This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
Why are we wasting taxpayers money these 'public servants'?This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
- details
Slowboathome said:
Glassman said:
BTP called yesterday. In a nutshell, she said that as there is no audio on the CCTV it will be my word against theirs. I asked if they have the footage and if they can see the body language of both youths. She said no, but will put in a request.
This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
Why are we wasting taxpayers money these 'public servants'?This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
- details
Glassman said:
BTP called yesterday. In a nutshell, she said that as there is no audio on the CCTV it will be my word against theirs. I asked if they have the footage and if they can see the body language of both youths. She said no, but will put in a request.
This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
Police don’t have the time to deal with he said, she said nonsense, especially after the event.This is a week after the event.
I also asked if she wanted to know which station they got off, "Ooh,yes please!" She didn't ask which carriage we were on.
- details
As said before 61016. It's plastered everywhere. I'm surprised you didn't notice it. In stations, in trains, over the PA at every stop.
Passenger emergency cord can be used but in most cases probably wouldn't be beneficial as the train is likley to stop in the middle of nowhere and just make the situation more heated. Activating it in a larger station may be more useful as it's likely to be staffed and may even have a BTP office.
Lack of staff on trains is an ongoing issue. It's a money saving exercise and does absolutely nothing for the passengers. Close ticket offices, get rid of Guards cutbacks cutbacks cutbacks. The opposite of a Public Service but that's what happens when you vote Tory.
Amazes me how many people complain about these horrible kids and yet when someone does actually do something to shut them up so many jump to the poor little cherubs defence.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/malling/news/video-sh...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Should have t
tted him harder the gobby ste.
Passenger emergency cord can be used but in most cases probably wouldn't be beneficial as the train is likley to stop in the middle of nowhere and just make the situation more heated. Activating it in a larger station may be more useful as it's likely to be staffed and may even have a BTP office.
Lack of staff on trains is an ongoing issue. It's a money saving exercise and does absolutely nothing for the passengers. Close ticket offices, get rid of Guards cutbacks cutbacks cutbacks. The opposite of a Public Service but that's what happens when you vote Tory.
Amazes me how many people complain about these horrible kids and yet when someone does actually do something to shut them up so many jump to the poor little cherubs defence.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/malling/news/video-sh...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Should have t
tted him harder the gobby ste.Rick101 said:
Lack of staff on trains is an ongoing issue. It's a money saving exercise and does absolutely nothing for the passengers. Close ticket offices, get rid of Guards cutbacks cutbacks cutbacks. The opposite of a Public Service but that's what happens when you vote Tory.
Then everyone complains when there are strikes against this behaviour...Greendubber said:
craigjm said:
Do we actually schedule jail in this country these days rather than be taken straight there from court? Something new for minor crimes?
Yes, and no it's not new. People are often called back for sentencing following conviction and quite a lot of them are told to bring a bag with them.
I got threatened with a stabbing on a Thameslink train into london.
Three lads playing really loud music and I asked them politely to put headphones in.
They were doing the whole ‘look at us’ thing ‘wot you looking at?’ to anyone glancing at them etc
Escalated quickly, I remained very polite. I realised when the third one stood up I was out of my depth. First two were skinny little rat boys. Third one was a big big lad!
Cut the story short - they got off at least a stop early as my partner called BTP. I ended up wasting my time giving a statement in order to receive a leaflet.
What pissed me off about the whole thing was after they alighted (in train terminology!) , I had other passengers so ‘well done, good for you…’ Right, so when I was dealing with this where was the support from you, including grown men?
If someone else had been in my situation I would definitely have supported them.
Happy to tut and roll your eyes, but not do anything about it? Cowards.
I was on trains in Japan recently, they had guards on trains walking up and down with a proper uniform (not a baggy fleece) with radios and extendable batons. That’s in super safe and polite Japan.
Japan shows UK rail to be shabby and overpriced - but that’s a different subject.
Three lads playing really loud music and I asked them politely to put headphones in.
They were doing the whole ‘look at us’ thing ‘wot you looking at?’ to anyone glancing at them etc
Escalated quickly, I remained very polite. I realised when the third one stood up I was out of my depth. First two were skinny little rat boys. Third one was a big big lad!
Cut the story short - they got off at least a stop early as my partner called BTP. I ended up wasting my time giving a statement in order to receive a leaflet.
What pissed me off about the whole thing was after they alighted (in train terminology!) , I had other passengers so ‘well done, good for you…’ Right, so when I was dealing with this where was the support from you, including grown men?
If someone else had been in my situation I would definitely have supported them.
Happy to tut and roll your eyes, but not do anything about it? Cowards.
I was on trains in Japan recently, they had guards on trains walking up and down with a proper uniform (not a baggy fleece) with radios and extendable batons. That’s in super safe and polite Japan.
Japan shows UK rail to be shabby and overpriced - but that’s a different subject.
Edited by jdw100 on Tuesday 14th May 02:54
Badda said:
WindyCommon said:
There’s your answer, and we can all learn from this. If a scrote threatens you like this, call the police and tell them you’ve just been threatened by a an aggressive scrote who indicated he had a knife/weapon. It’s ok that you didn’t stop to check or ask for proof.
If you’re right and there was knife then you may save someone else from being stabbed. How would you feel if you didn’t report it and later learned that someone had been stabbed?
Yes well done. You’ll trigger a response from armed units and all other free officers in the area, leaving them unavailable for confirmed events. If you’re right and there was knife then you may save someone else from being stabbed. How would you feel if you didn’t report it and later learned that someone had been stabbed?
I've been following this with interest and have enjoyed reading the different opinions posted, "doing the right thing" is a constant battle for me due to a mental issue that gives me a generally inflexible attention to rules that exist or ones that I perceive myself as being how decent people should exist in the world. This can be absolutely ridiculous at times but I don't see this in the moment and I have a lot of times where I have to stop myself speaking out to people I consider to be "doing wrong" while everyone else around either don't see this, don't care or have the ability to ignore it.
Playing music out loud in public, spitting, coughing without covering their mouth, parking in a way that inconveniences others, councils not fixing something I think they should, swearing in public, feet on the seats, pushing into queues, loud meetings or conversations in open plan offices, delivery bike riders on modded bikes that don't need pedals in pedestrian areas, eScooters that I generally agree should be acceptable but while the law says otherwise absolutely demonise anyone on one and 1000s of other things that constantly flow into my head as I try to exist.
When it comes to more significant stuff like actual criminal activity happening in front of me I get ridiculously passionate about it and expect those I'm contacting for assistance to do the same, I don't take into account their existing workloads, staffing levels or priorities, if someone is selling drugs next to my house I want RoboCop here in 30 seconds and those involved to be executed on the spot (OK, that's a bit OTT but if I'm ever in charge...). But then I worry I'm annoying the police by reporting stuff like kids on a fragile roof where I'm as concerned for their safety as I am the trespassing or the random car that's appeared nearby and doesn't look "right" (I'm usually good at this and have successfully found about 6 stolen cars but I don't always get it right). My head is like this scene in The Dark Knight but instead of spying on people I see a constant stream of cracked paving, fences that need painting, litter, dog eggs, "people doing stuff", things I consider to be bad decisions that don't affect me and much more... constantly like a barrage of thoughts that I think I need to report to someone. So I stay in as much as I can.
Oh and I ramble too much and don't get to the point, I think that's another "thing" I have though... sorry
So yeah, I constantly want to call people like the miscreants mentioned here out as well as some that are less of a threat from a weapons point of view but I'm fearful of being murdered these days because as others have said the support from fellow members of the public and the stretched authorities is limited... which then annoys me because they are "getting away with it" and the problem gets worse as more follow their lead.
What's the answer? More police and instant prison sentences for anyone caught with a knife would be a start but I guess my approach to this stuff is a bit "Judge Dredd" whereas the policy at the moment seems to be to cut resources, demoralise those that are left and then make it impossible to actually convict anyone.
I think the police need to weaponise the public and open up a "grassing" portal where you can submit content about anything from bad parking to ASB or actual crimes, AI filters this, it groups images of people and reports made about them and then one day brings it all up to help convict them of something. Absolutely abhorrent when you think about the possibility for it to be abused but the tech kind of exists, it just needs the data. A kind of extended Op Snap that allows anything to be submitted rather than hoping the officers picking up the crime you've reported bother to get in touch for the video / photos you've told them you have.
I doubt I've added anything to this discussion but thanks for the therapy session even if you didn't read it
Playing music out loud in public, spitting, coughing without covering their mouth, parking in a way that inconveniences others, councils not fixing something I think they should, swearing in public, feet on the seats, pushing into queues, loud meetings or conversations in open plan offices, delivery bike riders on modded bikes that don't need pedals in pedestrian areas, eScooters that I generally agree should be acceptable but while the law says otherwise absolutely demonise anyone on one and 1000s of other things that constantly flow into my head as I try to exist.
When it comes to more significant stuff like actual criminal activity happening in front of me I get ridiculously passionate about it and expect those I'm contacting for assistance to do the same, I don't take into account their existing workloads, staffing levels or priorities, if someone is selling drugs next to my house I want RoboCop here in 30 seconds and those involved to be executed on the spot (OK, that's a bit OTT but if I'm ever in charge...). But then I worry I'm annoying the police by reporting stuff like kids on a fragile roof where I'm as concerned for their safety as I am the trespassing or the random car that's appeared nearby and doesn't look "right" (I'm usually good at this and have successfully found about 6 stolen cars but I don't always get it right). My head is like this scene in The Dark Knight but instead of spying on people I see a constant stream of cracked paving, fences that need painting, litter, dog eggs, "people doing stuff", things I consider to be bad decisions that don't affect me and much more... constantly like a barrage of thoughts that I think I need to report to someone. So I stay in as much as I can.
Oh and I ramble too much and don't get to the point, I think that's another "thing" I have though... sorry
So yeah, I constantly want to call people like the miscreants mentioned here out as well as some that are less of a threat from a weapons point of view but I'm fearful of being murdered these days because as others have said the support from fellow members of the public and the stretched authorities is limited... which then annoys me because they are "getting away with it" and the problem gets worse as more follow their lead.
What's the answer? More police and instant prison sentences for anyone caught with a knife would be a start but I guess my approach to this stuff is a bit "Judge Dredd" whereas the policy at the moment seems to be to cut resources, demoralise those that are left and then make it impossible to actually convict anyone.
I think the police need to weaponise the public and open up a "grassing" portal where you can submit content about anything from bad parking to ASB or actual crimes, AI filters this, it groups images of people and reports made about them and then one day brings it all up to help convict them of something. Absolutely abhorrent when you think about the possibility for it to be abused but the tech kind of exists, it just needs the data. A kind of extended Op Snap that allows anything to be submitted rather than hoping the officers picking up the crime you've reported bother to get in touch for the video / photos you've told them you have.
I doubt I've added anything to this discussion but thanks for the therapy session even if you didn't read it
Edited by thetapeworm on Wednesday 15th May 09:39
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