The decline of manual values
Discussion
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Maybe because it's an annoying dog that won't bark when you want it to, will bark when you don't want it to, drags its arse along when you want it to get up and run, then won't hold back and tries to run away on you down steep hills.Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
GravelBen said:
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Maybe because it's an annoying dog that won't bark when you want it to, will bark when you don't want it to, drags its arse along when you want it to get up and run, then won't hold back and tries to run away on you down steep hills.Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Mr Tidy said:
CABC said:
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars
Everything new is better.
Until it isn't! tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars
Everything new is better.
I really don't want any of that rubbish on my cars.
Nor Adaptive cruise, keyless access, electric handbrakes thanks!
That may be why nothing modern really appeals to me - other than a GMA T33.
A mate of mine has a 1927 Harley, with hand gear change. Now that's involving to ride, believe me. As a curio, it's a great thing, but objectively, as a bike to get from A to B, it's crap.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Mr Tidy said:
CABC said:
Did anyone mourn the following when they were superseded by something better?
tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars
Everything new is better.
Until it isn't! tall gearing aimed at achieving better mpg test results
big brake servos needing 5mm pedal travel
big wheels & narrow sidewalls. ride not important, they look great.
lane assist
yellow H&S stickers inside cars
Everything new is better.
I really don't want any of that rubbish on my cars.
Nor Adaptive cruise, keyless access, electric handbrakes thanks!
That may be why nothing modern really appeals to me - other than a GMA T33.
A mate of mine has a 1927 Harley, with hand gear change. Now that's involving to ride, believe me. As a curio, it's a great thing, but objectively, as a bike to get from A to B, it's crap.
Get in, have a couple of beers and a play with yourself then get out. I think most PHers would rather do that than fuss about changing gear. After all, that's for driving Gods isn't it?
Christ on a bike, is this pistonheads or mumsnet?. All you lot wussing out and preferring auto's. Manual all the way please. We have recently changed our family cars to future proof them to manual gearboxes, we prefer them. Both are performance cars to be fair, and I have also got an old TVR with no PAS which is great. I don't think for one minute that manual transmission cars will devalue in 10 or 20 years, I think it will be the opposite, BUT, only if the car has a modicum of performance. Bread and butter cars may as well be auto as they are dull to drive anyway, I have been driving CVT hybrids as my company ride for a number of years (@30k miles pa) and they are fine, but properly soul destroying in terms of any driving enjoyment. The car ends up as a piece of transport and nothing more. Even a paddle shift robs the driver of the most technical arena of driving, getting the gearchange right. Doesn't help that I have been a biker for over 40 years so getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill to be learned and practised. I have no intention of allowing that skill to be lost, I enjoy changing gear. Maybe I am a saddo or a dying breed, happy to be pidgeon holed if this is the case.
grumpynuts said:
Christ on a bike, is this pistonheads or mumsnet?. All you lot wussing out and preferring auto's. Manual all the way please. We have recently changed our family cars to future proof them to manual gearboxes, we prefer them. Both are performance cars to be fair, and I have also got an old TVR with no PAS which is great. I don't think for one minute that manual transmission cars will devalue in 10 or 20 years, I think it will be the opposite, BUT, only if the car has a modicum of performance. Bread and butter cars may as well be auto as they are dull to drive anyway, I have been driving CVT hybrids as my company ride for a number of years (@30k miles pa) and they are fine, but properly soul destroying in terms of any driving enjoyment. The car ends up as a piece of transport and nothing more. Even a paddle shift robs the driver of the most technical arena of driving, getting the gearchange right. Doesn't help that I have been a biker for over 40 years so getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill to be learned and practised. I have no intention of allowing that skill to be lost, I enjoy changing gear. Maybe I am a saddo or a dying breed, happy to be pidgeon holed if this is the case.
So a “real man” drives an MX5?grumpynuts said:
Christ on a bike, is this pistonheads or mumsnet?. All you lot wussing out and preferring auto's. Manual all the way please. We have recently changed our family cars to future proof them to manual gearboxes, we prefer them. Both are performance cars to be fair, and I have also got an old TVR with no PAS which is great. I don't think for one minute that manual transmission cars will devalue in 10 or 20 years, I think it will be the opposite, BUT, only if the car has a modicum of performance. Bread and butter cars may as well be auto as they are dull to drive anyway, I have been driving CVT hybrids as my company ride for a number of years (@30k miles pa) and they are fine, but properly soul destroying in terms of any driving enjoyment. The car ends up as a piece of transport and nothing more. Even a paddle shift robs the driver of the most technical arena of driving, getting the gearchange right. Doesn't help that I have been a biker for over 40 years so getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill to be learned and practised. I have no intention of allowing that skill to be lost, I enjoy changing gear. Maybe I am a saddo or a dying breed, happy to be pidgeon holed if this is the case.
A kindred spirit - thank you. 
No doubt in my mind that modern autos are very good indeed.
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
dontlookdown said:
No doubt in my mind that modern autos are very good indeed.
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
This is an entirely sensible post. "I know autos are better but I prefer manuals". How can anyone argue with that. I know CDs and streaming are better but I prefer vinyl. Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
Sometimes, doing more work for a lesser result is just satisfying. Personally, I don't think it is with driving, so I'm auto all the way, but if someone else isn't just fine. My kids look at me playing my vinyl and think I'm crackers.
grumpynuts said:
Christ on a bike, is this pistonheads or mumsnet?. All you lot wussing out and preferring auto's. Manual all the way please. We have recently changed our family cars to future proof them to manual gearboxes, we prefer them. Both are performance cars to be fair, and I have also got an old TVR with no PAS which is great. I don't think for one minute that manual transmission cars will devalue in 10 or 20 years, I think it will be the opposite, BUT, only if the car has a modicum of performance. Bread and butter cars may as well be auto as they are dull to drive anyway, I have been driving CVT hybrids as my company ride for a number of years (@30k miles pa) and they are fine, but properly soul destroying in terms of any driving enjoyment. The car ends up as a piece of transport and nothing more. Even a paddle shift robs the driver of the most technical arena of driving, getting the gearchange right. Doesn't help that I have been a biker for over 40 years so getting gearchanges 100% right is a necessary skill to be learned and practised. I have no intention of allowing that skill to be lost, I enjoy changing gear. Maybe I am a saddo or a dying breed, happy to be pidgeon holed if this is the case.
Funnily enough, I've just bought a manual car because the alternative was a cvt. I'm not sure I've made the right choice. I *really* cannot understand the fuss. I really really don't see the point of a manual gearbox in an ordinary car.Re getting gear changes 100% right - can't speak for bikes, but in cars that's 100% BS. I have NEVER been a passenger in a car where the driver is getting gear changes 100% right. I mean, didn't Steve Sutcliff (for one) prove this once? Back to back tests of 0-60 in a dsg v manual Golf? Dsg replicates the times every time, the manual shift times are variable because even an extraordinarily experienced driver can't get it right every time.
Nobody can replicate the gear changes of a good dc gearbox. Yes, there is more involvement, but is it right? Accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, repeat time after time.
It can't be the right or best way, can it?
Yes I prefer manuals in old cars or sports cars, but they're bloody boring for the every day stuff and completely pointless in ordinary cars.
heebeegeetee said:
Yes I prefer manuals in old cars or sports cars, but they're bloody boring for the every day stuff and completely pointless in ordinary cars.
I don't know that I'd agree - surely 'ordinary' cars auto boxes and control software are more likely to be compromised by cost cutting than a more expensive luxury or performance car, so the ordinary car is the one more likely to have frustrating delayed response or get caught hunting between gears etc.I agree that no driver will have perfect manual shifts all the time, but the truth is they don't need to, the shifts just need to be 'good enough'. Personally I prefer being able to select the gear I want, when I want, how I want, without a computer second-guessing me or delaying the response. And I value that control much more than slightly more consistent shifts.
I think it depends a lot on the nature of your normal driving - if you have lots of stop-start traffic or trundling along boring roads then for sure an auto will be better suited, no argument there.
But if you are driving on interesting roads and you are someone who enjoys driving, then in an ordinary car as much as a sportscar a manual gearbox is more enjoyable and satisfying to me.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 12th May 12:29
GravelBen said:
I don't know that I'd agree - surely 'ordinary' cars auto boxes and control software are more likely to be compromised by cost cutting than a more expensive luxury or performance car, so the ordinary car is the one more likely to have frustrating delayed response or get caught hunting between gears etc.
The three autos I've driven of late, and in the past, have been very minimal with that. I think I find the manual more frustrating. Tbf it's a diesel, and this car has highlighted that diesel manuals are really not great.heebeegeetee said:
Funnily enough, I've just bought a manual car because the alternative was a cvt. I'm not sure I've made the right choice. I *really* cannot understand the fuss. I really really don't see the point of a manual gearbox in an ordinary car.
Re getting gear changes 100% right - can't speak for bikes, but in cars that's 100% BS. I have NEVER been a passenger in a car where the driver is getting gear changes 100% right. I mean, didn't Steve Sutcliff (for one) prove this once? Back to back tests of 0-60 in a dsg v manual Golf? Dsg replicates the times every time, the manual shift times are variable because even an extraordinarily experienced driver can't get it right every time.
Nobody can replicate the gear changes of a good dc gearbox. Yes, there is more involvement, but is it right? Accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, repeat time after time.
It can't be the right or best way, can it?
Yes I prefer manuals in old cars or sports cars, but they're bloody boring for the every day stuff and completely pointless in ordinary cars.
Manual gearboxes are now a bit of an anachronism, but for people who have driven with them for decades and developed reasonable competency and skill at their use, they are perfectly fine. It becomes pretty much a reflex. For able-bodied people, it is just something that they can do. It isn't particularly difficult for them.Re getting gear changes 100% right - can't speak for bikes, but in cars that's 100% BS. I have NEVER been a passenger in a car where the driver is getting gear changes 100% right. I mean, didn't Steve Sutcliff (for one) prove this once? Back to back tests of 0-60 in a dsg v manual Golf? Dsg replicates the times every time, the manual shift times are variable because even an extraordinarily experienced driver can't get it right every time.
Nobody can replicate the gear changes of a good dc gearbox. Yes, there is more involvement, but is it right? Accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, break drive, re-engage clutch, accelerate, repeat time after time.
It can't be the right or best way, can it?
Yes I prefer manuals in old cars or sports cars, but they're bloody boring for the every day stuff and completely pointless in ordinary cars.
A manual box allows full choice over the gears without a complex control system.
A manual gearbox and clutch requires little maintenance over the life a car, even with some sustained ham-fisted use that can shorten the life of a clutch (clutches did often last a long time with smooth use, but some modern ones appear to be a bit marginal).
I'm not sure what this "100% right" thing is that you are talking about. Is "100% right" even necessary? Few of us are racing, as far as I am aware.
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 12th May 13:41
TwigtheWonderkid said:
dontlookdown said:
No doubt in my mind that modern autos are very good indeed.
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
This is an entirely sensible post. "I know autos are better but I prefer manuals". How can anyone argue with that. I know CDs and streaming are better but I prefer vinyl. Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
Sometimes, doing more work for a lesser result is just satisfying. Personally, I don't think it is with driving, so I'm auto all the way, but if someone else isn't just fine. My kids look at me playing my vinyl and think I'm crackers.
Having just got back from a weekend in the lovely Lincolnshire Wolds, I can confirm that for 90% of the driving, changing my own gears added to the pleasure of travelling along some excellent back roads.
But for the last hour coming home, creeping back through the London suburbs, even I will admit that an auto would have been better;)
Interesting weekend,while talking about Manual's. As said i had the New M2 out yesterday for a good fun drive which gave me a smile for every mile and for 450+ BHP it is a hoot to drive... Today got the Z4M Coupe out for near on the same drive as yesterday with a naturally assparatied 330+ BHP it's totally different,it's bloody hard work,but still a smile a mile it certainly shows technology has changed even with the good old Manual gearboxes,the ZMC still feels quicker which dangerously means the M2 could easily catch you out because it is seriously more powerful..
Wether permitting E46 M3 Manual out next weekend...
Wether permitting E46 M3 Manual out next weekend...
In the right private road/racetrack I enjoy a manual gearbox as any other but some of you are exagerating…
For everyday driving there is no benefit or enjoyment, a modern auto it’s better than any manual, for everyday toke if driving witching the speed limit and considerate to others there’s nothing a modern auto can’t do well.
Everything else is just anoraks discussing things…. Like it’s a zen state making a gear change… “honing the skill”… ridiculous. For everyday driving there is no need to be so special like that. Anyone can change gears and drive along.
Racetrack, high power car, close ratios… different story
For everyday driving there is no benefit or enjoyment, a modern auto it’s better than any manual, for everyday toke if driving witching the speed limit and considerate to others there’s nothing a modern auto can’t do well.
Everything else is just anoraks discussing things…. Like it’s a zen state making a gear change… “honing the skill”… ridiculous. For everyday driving there is no need to be so special like that. Anyone can change gears and drive along.
Racetrack, high power car, close ratios… different story
TwigtheWonderkid said:
dontlookdown said:
No doubt in my mind that modern autos are very good indeed.
Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
This is an entirely sensible post. "I know autos are better but I prefer manuals". How can anyone argue with that. I know CDs and streaming are better but I prefer vinyl. Meanwhile, manual shift quality is getting worse because it's not an engineering priority anymore.
However, for me personally, using a manual is an everyday skill I have honed over the years, and exercising it gives me some pleasure and satisfaction. Autos may be 'better' but for that reason I still prefer a manual. For now at least;)
Sometimes, doing more work for a lesser result is just satisfying. Personally, I don't think it is with driving, so I'm auto all the way, but if someone else isn't just fine. My kids look at me playing my vinyl and think I'm crackers.
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