Tony Ponds Old Chevette

[Wingo]

aeropilot said:

The problem with the Shoveit is the engine, and the rarity of the parts for it if you are going to abuse it in competition. This is why you don't really see them much in historic rallying, despite being one of the best of the last era 2wd Grp.4 cars.

I don't even know now who the go-to engine builder would be for the 16v Vauxhall lump with Bill long since gone...?

The Engine in the Pondy car for sale looks to have a Jondel (rave engines) plate on it.

This sort of car can get you in to all sorts of high profile events these days, Goodwood and the like. Again from the pictures the Pondy car has been run at Goodwood in the past. Lord March doesn't like reproductions

So £115 k is not a massive amount of money, comparatively, more modern 4wd factory team rally cars with a decent pedigree can start as 3 or 4 times that amount.

It looks to my relatively untrained, when it comes to Chevettes, eye, a very orginal car, not been refurbished or rebuilt.

I seem to recall its been for sale a few times recently or another historic spec HSR.

There are one or two places in the UK that will still build you an historic spec HSR.

The herd go with Escorts, but if you are determined and/or wealthy enough you have have "new" historic spec, Fiat 131, TR7 V8, Manta 400, or the like.

[aeropilot]

Wingo said:

It looks to my relatively untrained, when it comes to Chevettes, eye, a very orginal car, not been refurbished or rebuilt.

Well, Pond crashed it heavily enough that meant retirement on SS10 in the '82 RAC.....so, while it now looks very like it was when he started the '82 RAC (wheels excepting) I would guess its had some sort of rebuilding after or in later years since then

[Legacywr]

There's a good chance this car doesn't stack up in the flesh...

[cjb44]

Wingo said:

You say that Lord March (now the Duke of Richmond) does not like reproductions and I know that is true, however I have to say that a lot of the cars at the Revival are reproductions and even the genuine cars have serious modifications which make them non original.


The Engine in the Pondy car for sale looks to have a Jondel (rave engines) plate on it.

This sort of car can get you in to all sorts of high profile events these days, Goodwood and the like. Again from the pictures the Pondy car has been run at Goodwood in the past. Lord March doesn't like reproductions

So £115 k is not a massive amount of money, comparatively, more modern 4wd factory team rally cars with a decent pedigree can start as 3 or 4 times that amount.

It looks to my relatively untrained, when it comes to Chevettes, eye, a very orginal car, not been refurbished or rebuilt.

I seem to recall its been for sale a few times recently or another historic spec HSR.

There are one or two places in the UK that will still build you an historic spec HSR.

The herd go with Escorts, but if you are determined and/or wealthy enough you have have "new" historic spec, Fiat 131, TR7 V8, Manta 400, or the like.

[Dapster]

It was up for £135k at Darell Taylor Classic Cars 2 years ago. The picture is the same as the set used in the current advert. Googling Darell Taylor gets you to www.worksescortparts.co.uk which is currently listing the car...so the same place.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/classic-car-weekly-...

https://worksescortparts.co.uk/product/ex-works-va...


Interestingly the car in the advert (306W) is RHD with LHD wiper set up. The sister car, (305W) was RHD with RHD wiper set up. Strange? Any reason why?

[CLK-GTR]

Crazy money. How much did the POA ex Richard Burns 309 make? 100k if lucky? That's levels more desirable than this.

[aeropilot]

CLK-GTR said:

Crazy money. How much did the POA ex Richard Burns 309 make? 100k if lucky? That's levels more desirable than this.

A Grp.A 309GTi is levels of desirable more than a Grp.4 car.........!!

That deserves a


I can remember ex-DTV Chevette HSR's being offered for sale in MN back in the late 80's for 7-8k....

[Wingo]

aeropilot said:

Wingo said:

It looks to my relatively untrained, when it comes to Chevettes, eye, a very orginal car, not been refurbished or rebuilt.

Well, Pond crashed it heavily enough that meant retirement on SS10 in the '82 RAC.....so, while it now looks very like it was when he started the '82 RAC (wheels excepting) I would guess its had some sort of rebuilding after or in later years since then

I should have qualified by that saying refurbished or rebuilt in recently.

The interior in particular looks quite of it's time?

An Historic original as first built, not so much as a wing, bumper, or the like replaced is something of a rare beast in rally circles as you know.

Then there are those that had a lot of work done back in period, very much triggers broom, but, after being retired from front line competition had a much quieter life, no hotshoe at the controls who may have knocked the odd corner off or worse. Not to mention the routine rebuild/replacement of the oily bits.

Then you have you "Original cars" with the works reg number on that have been recently refurbed/rebuilt to within an inch of their life, looking like they just rolled out of the workshop.

You may well see more or less distinctions.

Everyone tends to put a value on these sort of cars commensurate on their own personal preference, possibly at the time or now.

Today I'd love a proper period spec TR7V8 to play about with, back in the day is was more likely a Sunbeam or Chevette HSR

My days of stage rallying are over now and some of the cars I've used, abused and sold in the past have values now that put them well out of reach.

[CLK-GTR]

aeropilot said:

A Grp.A 309GTi is levels of desirable more than a Grp.4 car.........!!

That deserves a


I can remember ex-DTV Chevette HSR's being offered for sale in MN back in the late 80's for 7-8k....

It's the significance of the driver history that gives either car the value. On their own they're not particularly special cars.

[aeropilot]

CLK-GTR said:

aeropilot said:

A Grp.A 309GTi is levels of desirable more than a Grp.4 car.........!!

That deserves a


I can remember ex-DTV Chevette HSR's being offered for sale in MN back in the late 80's for 7-8k....

It's the significance of the driver history that gives either car the value. On their own they're not particularly special cars.

The value is how competitive the car is in what ever historic rally class it can run in.....not who's bum once sat in the seat many years earlier.

[ds666]

aeropilot said:

ds666 said:

aeropilot said:

CKY said:

TGCOTF-dewey said:

aeropilot said:

nismocat said:

£115k...





Ahh, that is funny. I am a fan of the HSR but that is just silly.

That's actually quite cheap for any ex-works Grp.4 rally car with history.

That was my thought too.

I've seen period recreation escorts not far off that.

I would agree, however this car has been advertised for the past 12 months at least, with the price dropping from £135k to £115k in that time, so the fact it's still not sold suggests 'the market' for these cars would beg to differ. Looks a great bit of fun either way.

The problem with the Shoveit is the engine, and the rarity of the parts for it if you are going to abuse it in competition. This is why you don't really see them much in historic rallying, despite being one of the best of the last era 2wd Grp.4 cars.

I don't even know now who the go-to engine builder would be for the 16v Vauxhall lump with Bill long since gone...?

How similar to the Lotus 907 engine is the Vauxhall ?

Err. 4 cylinders that happen to be same bore centres.....and they are both slanted arrangement, but after that, nothing.

People think they are similar as the coincidence of the slant arrangement (as both were designed with intentions of being doubled up to a V8) and the fact that Lotus when they found out the bore centres were the same, used a Bedford CF van as a test mule for their own head development.
Vauxhall also installed a Lotus engine in the Chevette in early chassis development of the rally Chevette before their own engine was ready, so people think there is inchangeability between the two as regards parts, but there isn't. Heads are very different, as just looking at them is clear.

Sorry I asked . I’ll get my anorak …

[aeropilot]

ds666 said:

aeropilot said:

ds666 said:

aeropilot said:

CKY said:

TGCOTF-dewey said:

aeropilot said:

nismocat said:

£115k...





Ahh, that is funny. I am a fan of the HSR but that is just silly.

That's actually quite cheap for any ex-works Grp.4 rally car with history.

That was my thought too.

I've seen period recreation escorts not far off that.

I would agree, however this car has been advertised for the past 12 months at least, with the price dropping from £135k to £115k in that time, so the fact it's still not sold suggests 'the market' for these cars would beg to differ. Looks a great bit of fun either way.

The problem with the Shoveit is the engine, and the rarity of the parts for it if you are going to abuse it in competition. This is why you don't really see them much in historic rallying, despite being one of the best of the last era 2wd Grp.4 cars.

I don't even know now who the go-to engine builder would be for the 16v Vauxhall lump with Bill long since gone...?

How similar to the Lotus 907 engine is the Vauxhall ?

Err. 4 cylinders that happen to be same bore centres.....and they are both slanted arrangement, but after that, nothing.

People think they are similar as the coincidence of the slant arrangement (as both were designed with intentions of being doubled up to a V8) and the fact that Lotus when they found out the bore centres were the same, used a Bedford CF van as a test mule for their own head development.
Vauxhall also installed a Lotus engine in the Chevette in early chassis development of the rally Chevette before their own engine was ready, so people think there is inchangeability between the two as regards parts, but there isn't. Heads are very different, as just looking at them is clear.

Sorry I asked . I’ll get my anorak …

I'm sorry I bothered.....

[CLK-GTR]

aeropilot said:

The value is how competitive the car is in what ever historic rally class it can run in.....not who's bum once sat in the seat many years earlier.

Well the market doesn't seem to think so or it would have been sold by now.

[ds666]

aeropilot said:

ds666 said:

aeropilot said:

ds666 said:

aeropilot said:

CKY said:

TGCOTF-dewey said:

aeropilot said:

nismocat said:

£115k...





Ahh, that is funny. I am a fan of the HSR but that is just silly.

That's actually quite cheap for any ex-works Grp.4 rally car with history.

That was my thought too.

I've seen period recreation escorts not far off that.

I would agree, however this car has been advertised for the past 12 months at least, with the price dropping from £135k to £115k in that time, so the fact it's still not sold suggests 'the market' for these cars would beg to differ. Looks a great bit of fun either way.

The problem with the Shoveit is the engine, and the rarity of the parts for it if you are going to abuse it in competition. This is why you don't really see them much in historic rallying, despite being one of the best of the last era 2wd Grp.4 cars.

I don't even know now who the go-to engine builder would be for the 16v Vauxhall lump with Bill long since gone...?

How similar to the Lotus 907 engine is the Vauxhall ?

Err. 4 cylinders that happen to be same bore centres.....and they are both slanted arrangement, but after that, nothing.

People think they are similar as the coincidence of the slant arrangement (as both were designed with intentions of being doubled up to a V8) and the fact that Lotus when they found out the bore centres were the same, used a Bedford CF van as a test mule for their own head development.
Vauxhall also installed a Lotus engine in the Chevette in early chassis development of the rally Chevette before their own engine was ready, so people think there is inchangeability between the two as regards parts, but there isn't. Heads are very different, as just looking at them is clear.

Sorry I asked . I’ll get my anorak …

I'm sorry I bothered.....

Most of your post was interesting .
But why did you feel the need to start with “err (are you stupid)”
I asked a genuine question . Didn’t expect a patronising reply .
I have good experience of 907 engine builders who have also built for historic Vauxhalls , hence my interest.

Edited by ds666 on Friday 8th March 00:02

[reddiesel]

aeropilot said:

The value is how competitive the car is in what ever historic rally class it can run in.....not who's bum once sat in the seat many years earlier.

There must be exceptions to that surely ?

[Jordie Barretts sock]

aeropilot said:

I'm sorry I bothered.....

I'm glad you did. I was interested.


Thank you.

[CLK-GTR]

reddiesel said:

There must be exceptions to that surely ?

Of course. A middle of the road car can be made very desirable if it was once owned or raced by somebody special, a WRC or F1 World Champion for example. Just like that Richard Burns car.

A good example would be the 190E 2.3. A good one of those would fetch 40k. The one Niki Lauda used in the Race of Champions made 300k a few months ago. God knows what the Senna car would do.

Edited by CLK-GTR on Friday 8th March 09:30

[The Conflated Outlier]

ds666 said:

How similar to the Lotus 907 engine is the Vauxhall ?

The 2000 crankshaft is the same and interchanges, but that's it. The slant 4 Vauxhall was a horrible old mare really. It never went that well, was thirsty and the weight was just astonishing - it makes a Pinto look like a lightweight.

I had a brand new unused 2000 FD short engine (block/crank/rods/pistons) a couple of years ago, still with bits of grease paper stuck to it. Couldn't give it away after months of advertising it for £250. I was about to sell the crank and weigh the rest in but a guy came and bought it in the nick of time. I can still recall trying to lift it - not a chance. It needed two of us.

[droopsnoot]

I believe crank bearings are the same on the slant four as one of the Lotus twin-cam engines, apart from the rear one. I was looking a few years ago when I needed some.

[ds666]

Thanks . The reason I asked is that I know Lotusbits have built these engines . Did one for a Firenze rallycar recently .
I have one of their 2.5l 912 based engines in my Esprit - 237bhp on the dyno .