Contractors: IR35 & general discussion
Discussion
Gad-Westy said:
Deep Thought said:
Bank holiday rate for short notice specialist nurse.
Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Is that sort of agency mark up typical for other sectors? I never really see that end and I think I just assumed it was probably more like 10-15%. Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Consultancies would take that sort of markup but not agencies.
Blown2CV said:
well if you actually read the discussion you'd see the nurses don't get anything close to that either.
It's there in the bbc article, £1050 to the pediatric nurse, albeit for a bank holiday shift. Even the day shift amount of £539 in their pocket is well beyond what most billable (on payroll) consultancy IT workers see.Gad-Westy said:
Is that sort of agency mark up typical for other sectors? I never really see that end and I think I just assumed it was probably more like 10-15%.
Mark ups can sometimes be 100% or more in the consultancy model. I once nearly placed 12 people at 100% mark up which would have been 3 years of £5k a day to me. Didn’t come off sadly. Gad-Westy said:
Deep Thought said:
Bank holiday rate for short notice specialist nurse.
Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Is that sort of agency mark up typical for other sectors? I never really see that end and I think I just assumed it was probably more like 10-15%. Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
well if you actually read the discussion you'd see the nurses don't get anything close to that either.
It's there in the bbc article, £1050 to the pediatric nurse, albeit for a bank holiday shift. Even the day shift amount of £539 in their pocket is well beyond what most billable (on payroll) consultancy IT workers see.Also, assuming 254 paid working days per year for a perm (but 224 billing days for our IT person) and 224 paid working days for a contractor.
a perm on £120k PA is earning £472 gross for each day they work or are on paid leave. Assuming that nurse can achieve £1050 every working day of the year, deducting 30 days unpaid holiday, that's about £120736 in their own personal gross per year.
So, the IT consultant earns slightly less, but in reality the nurse will never be able to achieve those rates every working day of the year, so this more than tips the balance the other way.
However... the markup is more what i was referring to....
The nurse's agency markup is 94%. However in the made up example of an IT consultant on £120k PA and being billed out at £3500pd (and billing days being 224, not 254) this means the total annual revenue is £784k. This constitutes a markup of 653%.
The markup varies wildly in my experience, I've been marked up at 5% and 45% (although the latter was split between the agency and the supplier). As a customer I've seen over 100%, the extremes seem to be very junior people and very senior people, and also varies if they're contracting into a supplier or permanent employees of the supplier.
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
not really because in IT even in a less short term notice capacity someone earning £120k could get billed out at £3500 a day / £70k a month...
The vast majority of IT chumps being 'billed out' are not getting anywhere close to the nurse's £1050 per day themselves.Greenmantle said:
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
not really because in IT even in a less short term notice capacity someone earning £120k could get billed out at £3500 a day / £70k a month...
The vast majority of IT chumps being 'billed out' are not getting anywhere close to the nurse's £1050 per day themselves.Blown2CV said:
Greenmantle said:
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
not really because in IT even in a less short term notice capacity someone earning £120k could get billed out at £3500 a day / £70k a month...
The vast majority of IT chumps being 'billed out' are not getting anywhere close to the nurse's £1050 per day themselves.Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
well if you actually read the discussion you'd see the nurses don't get anything close to that either.
It's there in the bbc article, £1050 to the pediatric nurse, albeit for a bank holiday shift. Even the day shift amount of £539 in their pocket is well beyond what most billable (on payroll) consultancy IT workers see.£539 gross translates to £120K pa of a salary. I'd have thought theres quite a few in IT in consultancies on that. Certainly a higher percentage than in nursing.
Deep Thought said:
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
well if you actually read the discussion you'd see the nurses don't get anything close to that either.
It's there in the bbc article, £1050 to the pediatric nurse, albeit for a bank holiday shift. Even the day shift amount of £539 in their pocket is well beyond what most billable (on payroll) consultancy IT workers see.£539 gross translates to £120K pa of a salary. I'd have thought theres quite a few in IT in consultancies on that. Certainly a higher percentage than in nursing.
Blown2CV said:
Deep Thought said:
Olivera said:
Blown2CV said:
well if you actually read the discussion you'd see the nurses don't get anything close to that either.
It's there in the bbc article, £1050 to the pediatric nurse, albeit for a bank holiday shift. Even the day shift amount of £539 in their pocket is well beyond what most billable (on payroll) consultancy IT workers see.£539 gross translates to £120K pa of a salary. I'd have thought theres quite a few in IT in consultancies on that. Certainly a higher percentage than in nursing.
Deep Thought said:
Yes, i was replying to Olivera.
My main point was that it's very good money, and certainly comparable to what many earn in IT.I'm not quite sure where the suggestion of 120k for a typical IT consultancy (body shop) role came from, especially as many will be earning much less, nor of it's relevancy at all to the original story.
Olivera said:
Deep Thought said:
Yes, i was replying to Olivera.
My main point was that it's very good money, and certainly comparable to what many earn in IT.I'm not quite sure where the suggestion of 120k for a typical IT consultancy (body shop) role came from, especially as many will be earning much less, nor of it's relevancy at all to the original story.
You as a top IT person earns £1500 per day ~ £300K per year.
Your agent is an average agent who earns X times £1500 from you (where X is between 0 and 1)
If you are in the game you know roughly what X is.
Could be a fixed amount as well but less than your day rate.
You as a top nurse (ICU) earns £1500 per day ~ £300K per year.
Your agent is an average agent who earns X times £1500 from you (where X is between 2 and 3)
A close friend of mine is in the game.
Shout if you still don't understand!
Olivera said:
Deep Thought said:
Yes, i was replying to Olivera.
My main point was that it's very good money, and certainly comparable to what many earn in IT.I'm not quite sure where the suggestion of 120k for a typical IT consultancy (body shop) role came from, especially as many will be earning much less, nor of it's relevancy at all to the original story.
Deep Thought said:
Gad-Westy said:
Deep Thought said:
Bank holiday rate for short notice specialist nurse.
Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Is that sort of agency mark up typical for other sectors? I never really see that end and I think I just assumed it was probably more like 10-15%. Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Consultancies would take that sort of markup but not agencies.
Gad-Westy said:
Deep Thought said:
Gad-Westy said:
Deep Thought said:
Bank holiday rate for short notice specialist nurse.
Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Is that sort of agency mark up typical for other sectors? I never really see that end and I think I just assumed it was probably more like 10-15%. Typical rate "Our calculations indicate that for a single Friday shift the trust is charged almost £1,000, of which £539 goes to the nurse, and £400 goes to the agency. "
So yes, probably comparable overall to IT.
Consultancies would take that sort of markup but not agencies.
There are so many things that a nurse has to do to keep up to date. Especially at the critical end of nursing.
None of that is done by the agent they just validate those credentials.
In addition nurses via agencies NEVER do multiple days in the same place. The NHS do not allow this.
Olivera said:
My main point was that it's very good money, and certainly comparable to what many earn in IT.
I'm not quite sure where the suggestion of 120k for a typical IT consultancy (body shop) role came from, especially as many will be earning much less, nor of it's relevancy at all to the original story.
Where did anyone say "typical"?I'm not quite sure where the suggestion of 120k for a typical IT consultancy (body shop) role came from, especially as many will be earning much less, nor of it's relevancy at all to the original story.
Very possible to earn that in an IT consultancy and I'd wager a pound to a penny there's a lot more getting that in IT than there are nurses.
they all have their own business models. For a senior UK based person the margin might be 40%, however they make their money by using other types of people more widely across engagements. Big 4 use clever oxbridge camilla grads earning top level grad money, but still grad money, and billing them out as highly experienced people. Next tier down use offshore or landed resources from low cost parts of the world, who might not be top flight across the board, but they are so cheap it doesn't matter. Either way, the numbers are bolstered out by some people turning in 200-300% margin commonly. You might get some oddities though for specialist areas or leader roles where the rate card ends up being just stupid money anyway, such as big banks. They might even be making hundreds of percent on experienced UK based senior people.
OK... question for the contractors on here
if a hypothetical outside IR35 contractor was taking £1000pd revenue, and wanted to maximise their legal ability to reduce their tax burden, what sort of salary might they end up with? I had a look on contractor calculator, but i am not quite sure for these online tools whether they are legally very cautious or if they are openly suggesting you take it as far as you can.
i guess assuming a working year of 224 days
if a hypothetical outside IR35 contractor was taking £1000pd revenue, and wanted to maximise their legal ability to reduce their tax burden, what sort of salary might they end up with? I had a look on contractor calculator, but i am not quite sure for these online tools whether they are legally very cautious or if they are openly suggesting you take it as far as you can.
i guess assuming a working year of 224 days
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