Crypto Currency Thread (Vol.2)
Discussion
" I think it's fair to say that in the 15 years or so since it's been around Bitcoin hasn't really demonstrated utility for the "man on the street" - if it had we'd all be using it, surely?
But in that time Bitcoin must have soaked up vast amounts of resources - energy to mine bitcoin, and capital to purchase it. "
and yet gold bugs delight in their stuff:
unknown supply, not much direct utility to the man on the street - barring a steady if weak investment.
I'm sure that it would have taken gold/precious metals/stones as long as BTC has to become widely accepted for whatever properties the buyer perceives.
computers as per your comment had indeed been around umpteen years, but when personal computers came out - what was the utility? bugger all.....apart from geeks who were doing rudeimentary programming trials in the late 70's an atari had more use! fast forward 20 years and things had changed.....
as to energy to mine....many these days are tapping into unused resources, flares, excess hydro etc - probably a damm sight less than the efforts tpo pull more and more precious metals out of the ground.
But in that time Bitcoin must have soaked up vast amounts of resources - energy to mine bitcoin, and capital to purchase it. "
and yet gold bugs delight in their stuff:
unknown supply, not much direct utility to the man on the street - barring a steady if weak investment.
I'm sure that it would have taken gold/precious metals/stones as long as BTC has to become widely accepted for whatever properties the buyer perceives.
computers as per your comment had indeed been around umpteen years, but when personal computers came out - what was the utility? bugger all.....apart from geeks who were doing rudeimentary programming trials in the late 70's an atari had more use! fast forward 20 years and things had changed.....
as to energy to mine....many these days are tapping into unused resources, flares, excess hydro etc - probably a damm sight less than the efforts tpo pull more and more precious metals out of the ground.
greengreenwood7 said:
I'm sure that it would have taken gold/precious metals/stones as long as BTC has to become widely accepted for whatever properties the buyer perceives.
Gold has 'something' else Bitcoin wouldn't have the logo it does. It has history, it's ingrained in us, "Gold star" "Gold medal" etc etc, that it looks like it does and can be found in it's natural state and doesn't alter over time, must have made it a true wonder before the understanding of chemistry and the extraction of other pure metals from ores? Yes you have to extract it and it does largely then just sit there, but that's no different to bitcoin, if people want it to back/be money? The extraction becomes harder over time it's not automatic and so everyone's Gold took roughly the same endeavour to get and it can't be created it has to be found. Because it's been valued for so long, it's ingrained in the system and institutions, perhaps illogical to many but it is and the IMF used to take contributions in Gold and still are one of the largest holders.
Money is control/power/freedom and so the current major possessors of Gold can make and change the rules and it you have an asset and make the rules that asset won't be devalued, they will protect their power?
Perhaps some of the Bitcoin whales are these large institutions who knows, but that would be interesting.
Condi said:
Lol, can you read a chart?!
What about this is guaranteed? You have no idea where Btc is going next, all you're doing is looking at it over a time frame and going "its guaranteed to go up" when it has had several large dips which have resulted in 50%+ reductions in price and have taken years to recover from. If it was guaranteed to go up it wouldn't have this big drops would it? If you bought in 2017 it might have taken 3 years to be in profit, if you bought in 2021 it could have taken 3 years again. I wouldn't consider something which can drop 50%+ in a matter of months and take years to recover "guaranteed to go up" or a "good store of value". What if you need that cash when it's 50% down (which it could do, over the next few months, you have literally no idea)? A good store of value is not volatile, but is predictable, Bitcoin is anything but.
Honestly, if you look at this chart and think it's "guaranteed to go up" and is a "good store of value" then there is little point continuing this discussion.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
? George Orwell, 1984
BTC price is very predictable.What about this is guaranteed? You have no idea where Btc is going next, all you're doing is looking at it over a time frame and going "its guaranteed to go up" when it has had several large dips which have resulted in 50%+ reductions in price and have taken years to recover from. If it was guaranteed to go up it wouldn't have this big drops would it? If you bought in 2017 it might have taken 3 years to be in profit, if you bought in 2021 it could have taken 3 years again. I wouldn't consider something which can drop 50%+ in a matter of months and take years to recover "guaranteed to go up" or a "good store of value". What if you need that cash when it's 50% down (which it could do, over the next few months, you have literally no idea)? A good store of value is not volatile, but is predictable, Bitcoin is anything but.
Honestly, if you look at this chart and think it's "guaranteed to go up" and is a "good store of value" then there is little point continuing this discussion.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
? George Orwell, 1984
It follows a four year cycle giving you returns of about 400% from one cycle ATH to the next.
Smart investments from bottom to ATH can give you 20x returns.
Your chart shows just this.
But hey, don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.
Condi, do me a favour and answer the questions you've been asked numerous times before or please STFU and leave this thread alone because you're becoming very tiresome.
1) You keep claiming that BTC is a bad store of value despite RichTT and me showing you the numbers.
So: tell me, what is your preferred store of value?
Explain why it is better from a technical or conceptual point of vue?
And show me how it outperforms BTC on a longer time frame? Because that is what store of value means: a longer time frame. Short time frames like you're using to prove your point are called speculation.
2) You also keep claiming that governments are going to ban crypto but instead they are approving BTC ETF's, allowing BTC adoption into the traditional financial system.
Please elaborate.
Regards,
Erik
@scooter....
" Gold has 'something' else Bitcoin wouldn't have the logo it does. It has history, it's ingrained in us, "Gold star" "Gold medal" etc etc, that it looks like it does and can be found in it's natural state and doesn't alter over time, must have made it a true wonder before the understanding of chemistry and the extraction of other pure metals from ores? "
you missed the point; I was suggesting to Condi that Gold or any other trading 'asset' wouldn't have suddenly become the defacto standard for stored wealth/currency hundreds of years ago.
No one would have said on first seeing it that it had any material worth, that didn't happen overnight and nor will whatever BTC becomes accepted for by society.
In reality, digital assets and digital projects are and will continue to disrupt 'Trad' - whether folks like that movement or not. Some will kick back, but like it or not, we're in a digital age - and have been for some time and we're not far away from all sorts of unheard of things: cars that drive themselves, robots that are more than just a static machine.
So an 'invisible asset/commodity' isn't that much of a stretch - in the context of the acceleration of 'digital'.
" Gold has 'something' else Bitcoin wouldn't have the logo it does. It has history, it's ingrained in us, "Gold star" "Gold medal" etc etc, that it looks like it does and can be found in it's natural state and doesn't alter over time, must have made it a true wonder before the understanding of chemistry and the extraction of other pure metals from ores? "
you missed the point; I was suggesting to Condi that Gold or any other trading 'asset' wouldn't have suddenly become the defacto standard for stored wealth/currency hundreds of years ago.
No one would have said on first seeing it that it had any material worth, that didn't happen overnight and nor will whatever BTC becomes accepted for by society.
In reality, digital assets and digital projects are and will continue to disrupt 'Trad' - whether folks like that movement or not. Some will kick back, but like it or not, we're in a digital age - and have been for some time and we're not far away from all sorts of unheard of things: cars that drive themselves, robots that are more than just a static machine.
So an 'invisible asset/commodity' isn't that much of a stretch - in the context of the acceleration of 'digital'.
It seems the US regulator and trading platforms can’t even agree on what cryptocurrencies are…
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/robinhood...
Hopefully we’ll get some clarity soon.
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/robinhood...
Hopefully we’ll get some clarity soon.
Right, no answers from Condi, mais quelle surprise...
So, now that whe have come to the conclusion that either a) he's just been trolling this thread all the time or b) he really does not have a clue what he's talking about, perhaps those of us really interested in the potential merrits and profits cryptocurrencies have to offer (if there's anyone left on here) can get back to some in depth discussions.
I'll start of with a question: AI coins and meme coins seem to be the narrative of this cycle, outperforming the rest.
Managed some nice profits through direct investment in AI coins and indirect investment in meme coins through SOL.
But what are the projects you're looking at for future crypto investments?
Personally I'm researching BTC layer 2 solutions and modular blockchain applications. Tokenization of real world assets is an interesting concept, but I think it's till too early for this stuff to take off.
Your opinions?
So, now that whe have come to the conclusion that either a) he's just been trolling this thread all the time or b) he really does not have a clue what he's talking about, perhaps those of us really interested in the potential merrits and profits cryptocurrencies have to offer (if there's anyone left on here) can get back to some in depth discussions.
I'll start of with a question: AI coins and meme coins seem to be the narrative of this cycle, outperforming the rest.
Managed some nice profits through direct investment in AI coins and indirect investment in meme coins through SOL.
But what are the projects you're looking at for future crypto investments?
Personally I'm researching BTC layer 2 solutions and modular blockchain applications. Tokenization of real world assets is an interesting concept, but I think it's till too early for this stuff to take off.
Your opinions?
ERIKM400 said:
Right, no answers from Condi, mais quelle surprise...
So, now that whe have come to the conclusion that either a) he's just been trolling this thread all the time or b) he really does not have a clue what he's talking about, perhaps those of us really interested in the potential merrits and profits cryptocurrencies have to offer (if there's anyone left on here) can get back to some in depth discussions.
I'll start of with a question: AI coins and meme coins seem to be the narrative of this cycle, outperforming the rest.
Managed some nice profits through direct investment in AI coins and indirect investment in meme coins through SOL.
But what are the projects you're looking at for future crypto investments?
Personally I'm researching BTC layer 2 solutions and modular blockchain applications. Tokenization of real world assets is an interesting concept, but I think it's till too early for this stuff to take off.
Your opinions?
My opinions? OK then...So, now that whe have come to the conclusion that either a) he's just been trolling this thread all the time or b) he really does not have a clue what he's talking about, perhaps those of us really interested in the potential merrits and profits cryptocurrencies have to offer (if there's anyone left on here) can get back to some in depth discussions.
I'll start of with a question: AI coins and meme coins seem to be the narrative of this cycle, outperforming the rest.
Managed some nice profits through direct investment in AI coins and indirect investment in meme coins through SOL.
But what are the projects you're looking at for future crypto investments?
Personally I'm researching BTC layer 2 solutions and modular blockchain applications. Tokenization of real world assets is an interesting concept, but I think it's till too early for this stuff to take off.
Your opinions?
Anything that isn't Bitcoin is junk.
Many "next big thing"s may well be pumped to the moon, but they will crash back to zero.
Bitcoin is uniquely valuable due to its combination of characteristics and longevity.
Anything that is controlled by an organisation or person, which is all of them, is worthless.
In other news the Tornado Cash lad got sentenced to 64 months in the Netherlands for 'money laundering'.
The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
RichTT said:
In other news the Tornado Cash lad got sentenced to 64 months in the Netherlands for 'money laundering'.
The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
And people wonder why Satoshi disappeared! But yeah even decentralized systems require devs. Opsec is key The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
RichTT said:
In other news the Tornado Cash lad got sentenced to 64 months in the Netherlands for 'money laundering'.
The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
With North Korea and anyone else on a sanctions list using the platform, this is hardly a surprise. If you dick with the hegemony of Western economics and more important Foreign Policy objectives - you are on a hiding to nothing. It doesn't matter what the little people think about democracy and perceived ills / injustices of the current system - you are messing with forces way more powerful than Mickey Mouse regulators.The judge handed down a verdict that claimed that the liability of someone writing code and what other people do with it, lands on them. Which is just as ridiculous as saying a knife maker is liable for someone using it to hurt someone else, or a car manufacturer being liable when a driver runs someone over.
Absolute clown world.
This isn't new or even limited to BTC, anyone dense enough to think they can take on the likes of OFAC and its reach (and what they can pull behind the scenes internationally); is going to lose. OFAC which gets most of its powers from the Trading With the Enemy Act (and then its peace time extension) - basically exists on a permeant war footing - to remove ANY economic threat to US interests. They can paper up anything in the anonymity space as a threat and will act on it. The laws / decrees that created OFACs existence are also those that spawned executive order 6102 (for the gold bugs).
Even the fines they can levy in recent times are disproportionate to offence (ask BNP). It will also be an existential and omnipresent threat to anonymous financial networks always. Its why Crypto will never, ever, ever be allowed to usurp $ (mainly), EUR, £ control. Thinking otherwise and you are on a hiding to nothing.
This is simply "f
k around and find out".OoopsVoss said:
With North Korea and anyone else on a sanctions list using the platform, this is hardly a surprise. If you dick with the hegemony of Western economics and more important Foreign Policy objectives - you are on a hiding to nothing. It doesn't matter what the little people think about democracy and perceived ills / injustices of the current system - you are messing with forces way more powerful than Mickey Mouse regulators.
This isn't new or even limited to BTC, anyone dense enough to think they can take on the likes of OFAC and its reach (and what they can pull behind the scenes internationally); is going to lose. OFAC which gets most of its powers from the Trading With the Enemy Act (and then its peace time extension) - basically exists on a permeant war footing - to remove ANY economic threat to US interests. They can paper up anything in the anonymity space as a threat and will act on it. The laws / decrees that created OFACs existence are also those that spawned executive order 6102 (for the gold bugs).
Even the fines they can levy in recent times are disproportionate to offence (ask BNP). It will also be an existential and omnipresent threat to anonymous financial networks always. Its why Crypto will never, ever, ever be allowed to usurp $ (mainly), EUR, £ control. Thinking otherwise and you are on a hiding to nothing.
This is simply "fk around and find out".
You're labouring under the assumption that using BTC can be stopped byt the powers that be, when it's specifically designed not to be.This isn't new or even limited to BTC, anyone dense enough to think they can take on the likes of OFAC and its reach (and what they can pull behind the scenes internationally); is going to lose. OFAC which gets most of its powers from the Trading With the Enemy Act (and then its peace time extension) - basically exists on a permeant war footing - to remove ANY economic threat to US interests. They can paper up anything in the anonymity space as a threat and will act on it. The laws / decrees that created OFACs existence are also those that spawned executive order 6102 (for the gold bugs).
Even the fines they can levy in recent times are disproportionate to offence (ask BNP). It will also be an existential and omnipresent threat to anonymous financial networks always. Its why Crypto will never, ever, ever be allowed to usurp $ (mainly), EUR, £ control. Thinking otherwise and you are on a hiding to nothing.
This is simply "f
k around and find out".OoopsVoss said:
With North Korea and anyone else on a sanctions list using the platform
Yes, this sort of judgement is new. Very new, and unprecedented. You are missing the forest for the trees. Open source code runs on almost every single computer and device on the planet. They punished him and charged him with writing code and releasing it, thus he was liable for others actions. He is being held liable for other people's actions using the smart contract software he helped develop. He did not personally handle funds, he did not personally launder the 'money'. You did not need to use the hosted front end in order to interact with the smart contract.
This is not just a fundamental misunderstanding of how immutable smart contract protocols work, but there is seemingly no end to the liability this could cause for anyone who builds anything, and not just software. Is Microsoft liable if someone uses a Windows PC to hack a bank? Is a gun manufacturer liable if someone performs a robbery with one of their guns?
Edited by RichTT on Wednesday 15th May 13:29
RichTT said:
OoopsVoss said:
With North Korea and anyone else on a sanctions list using the platform
Yes, this sort of judgement is new. Very new, and unprecedented. You are missing the forest for the trees. Open source code runs on almost every single computer and device on the planet. They punished him and charged him with writing code and releasing it, thus he was liable for others actions. He is being held liable for other people's actions using the smart contract software he helped develop. He did not personally handle funds, he did not personally launder the 'money'. You did not need to use the hosted front end in order to interact with the smart contract.
This is not just a fundamental misunderstanding of how immutable smart contract protocols work, but there is seemingly no end to the liability this could cause for anyone who builds anything, and not just software. Is Microsoft liable if someone uses a Windows PC to hack a bank? Is a gun manufacturer liable if someone performs a robbery with one of their guns?
Edited by RichTT on Wednesday 15th May 13:29
You are living in a fantasy land. Jesus could have come up with all the jargon in your post. However, they just don't give a f
k. They look at this as threat to Foreign Policy objective. That trumps all.You think you have invented something great, it might be - but the powers that be have determined its a threat.
EDIT - I'm not missing anything - I didn't say it was correct, but I do happen to know exactly what these entities can do and reach they have.
Edited by OoopsVoss on Wednesday 15th May 13:45
BandOfBrothers said:
My opinions? OK then...
Anything that isn't Bitcoin is junk.
Many "next big thing"s may well be pumped to the moon, but they will crash back to zero.
Bitcoin is uniquely valuable due to its combination of characteristics and longevity.
Anything that is controlled by an organisation or person, which is all of them, is worthless.
AgreeAnything that isn't Bitcoin is junk.
Many "next big thing"s may well be pumped to the moon, but they will crash back to zero.
Bitcoin is uniquely valuable due to its combination of characteristics and longevity.
Anything that is controlled by an organisation or person, which is all of them, is worthless.
BTC is the only thing I will be holding on to in the long term.
But that doesn't mean you can not use some of the other crypto projects to make short term gains and convert the profits back in to BTC
OoopsVoss said:
You haven' done enough research. Go look at the actual points in my post re Trading With the Enemy Act, and EO6102 and you won't be surprised at ALL what happens when you dick around with this stuff. Cry me a river for this guy, its hardly news that there are unsafe convictions out there. Ever looked at something in the real world like the Libor case (which was utter BS).
You are living in a fantasy land. Jesus could have come up with all the jargon in your post. However, they just don't give a fk. They look at this as threat to Foreign Policy objective. That trumps all.
You think you have invented something great, it might be - but the powers that be have determined its a threat.
EDIT - I'm not missing anything - I didn't say it was correct, but I do happen to know exactly what these entities can do and reach they have.
Well that's why the decentralized and pseudo anonymous characteristics of BTC are so important.You are living in a fantasy land. Jesus could have come up with all the jargon in your post. However, they just don't give a f
k. They look at this as threat to Foreign Policy objective. That trumps all.You think you have invented something great, it might be - but the powers that be have determined its a threat.
EDIT - I'm not missing anything - I didn't say it was correct, but I do happen to know exactly what these entities can do and reach they have.
Edited by OoopsVoss on Wednesday 15th May 13:45
And the reason why Satoshi had to disappear after bootstrapping Bitcoin.
Because this makes it impossible for organisations to go after a single person or a centralized potential point of failure.
How are you going to shut down or censure a truelly decentralized protocol running on millions of computers worldwide?
ERIKM400 said:
BandOfBrothers said:
My opinions? OK then...
Anything that isn't Bitcoin is junk.
Many "next big thing"s may well be pumped to the moon, but they will crash back to zero.
Bitcoin is uniquely valuable due to its combination of characteristics and longevity.
Anything that is controlled by an organisation or person, which is all of them, is worthless.
AgreeAnything that isn't Bitcoin is junk.
Many "next big thing"s may well be pumped to the moon, but they will crash back to zero.
Bitcoin is uniquely valuable due to its combination of characteristics and longevity.
Anything that is controlled by an organisation or person, which is all of them, is worthless.
BTC is the only thing I will be holding on to in the long term.
But that doesn't mean you can not use some of the other crypto projects to make short term gains and convert the profits back in to BTC
BTC has fairly regular peaks and troughs.
I've just sold out of my BTC holdings. I will buy back in once the price halves.
BandOfBrothers said:
Altcoins are complete speculation - you are entirely dependent upon timing the market with them, not a great investment strategy.
BTC has fairly regular peaks and troughs.
I've just sold out of my BTC holdings. I will buy back in once the price halves.
We've not come out of the trough yet though. BTC has fairly regular peaks and troughs.
I've just sold out of my BTC holdings. I will buy back in once the price halves.
ERIKM400 said:
Well that's why the decentralized and pseudo anonymous characteristics of BTC are so important.
And the reason why Satoshi had to disappear after bootstrapping Bitcoin.
Because this makes it impossible for organisations to go after a single person or a centralized potential point of failure.
How are you going to shut down or censure a truelly decentralized protocol running on millions of computers worldwide?
The Tornado clowns knew they were running a laundry business. Pretending otherwise is nonsense - they even admitted it but said "hey its a robot, blame the user". Mixers are known to facilitate crime (you know nasty stuff like drugs, people smuggling, slavery etc etc), if they were really about privacy and human rights - they didn't need to profit from it.And the reason why Satoshi had to disappear after bootstrapping Bitcoin.
Because this makes it impossible for organisations to go after a single person or a centralized potential point of failure.
How are you going to shut down or censure a truelly decentralized protocol running on millions of computers worldwide?
Anything that is profited from that promotes crime will be and is fair game - especially if it goes up against the "man". Part of BTCs lure to many is they actually believe in the anarchic promise to take over FIAT currency (witnessed in here). People are then surprised when the system fights back?
Satoshi doing a Lord Lucan, was probably due to being aware of exactly what human nature was going to do with the creation. Most of it won't be good.
RichTT said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Altcoins are complete speculation - you are entirely dependent upon timing the market with them, not a great investment strategy.
BTC has fairly regular peaks and troughs.
I've just sold out of my BTC holdings. I will buy back in once the price halves.
We've not come out of the trough yet though. BTC has fairly regular peaks and troughs.
I've just sold out of my BTC holdings. I will buy back in once the price halves.
Think I'll stick with my trusty tea leaves, thank you!
Gassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff