FIRECalc

[Condi]

Welshbeef said:

Surely people have no judgement on what other individuals choose to do/when they retire or don’t.

Judging? Not at all, I just really don't understand the logic behind it.

FIRE is talked about at times like working is the devils choice, which suggests people should change jobs, not live off beans for years to get away from it.

As for "normal", there is no normal, I agree. If you win the lottery and can afford to retire at 40, then fantastic, but that is very different to retiring at 40 with £12k a year to live off for the next 40/50 years of your life.

[mids]

Condi said:

mids said:

FIRE is about retiring early, often well before your pension is available.

AKA sacrificing your enjoyment now to buy time later, at which point you won't have enough money to really enjoy yourself then either!


Alright if you like walking or gardening I guess, but surely preferably to find a job you enjoy and retire at a normal age?

Plenty of enjoyment in my life and a career in F1 & Aerospace which I've thoroughly relished but thanks for your concern ;-)

but seriously, I do get your point. I read a few FIRE blogs and some are very severe in their efforts but... I wouldn't judge because it's their choice and I doubt anyone is doing it without considering the sacrifices being made. They deem it worth it, you don't. Just different priorities that's all.

[Welshbeef]

Condi said:

Judging? Not at all, I just really don't understand the logic behind it.

FIRE is talked about at times like working is the devils choice, which suggests people should change jobs, not live off beans for years to get away from it.

As for "normal", there is no normal, I agree. If you win the lottery and can afford to retire at 40, then fantastic, but that is very different to retiring at 40 with £12k a year to live off for the next 40/50 years of your life.

Depends.

You could have home funded/owned outright and grow veg + fruit maybe have an allotment too. So £12k whilst being very low for most to live off, if you cut the the ragged bone it’s possible and to some doing that isn’t a chore a hassle in fact it’s enjoyable.
I don’t think early retirement would be good for me.

[NickCQ]

Condi said:

Judging? Not at all, I just really don't understand the logic behind it.
FIRE is talked about at times like working is the devils choice, which suggests people should change jobs, not live off beans for years to get away from it.
As for "normal", there is no normal, I agree. If you win the lottery and can afford to retire at 40, then fantastic, but that is very different to retiring at 40 with £12k a year to live off for the next 40/50 years of your life.

There are a couple of different flavours of FIRE. I agree that living off beans to save £350k to provide £12k income at 3.5% SWR to then live off beans for the rest of your life doesn't make much sense.

What I observe from other forums is that the more common flavour is people in high stress / long hours jobs on healthy incomes that recognise that their current level of work is unsustainable into middle and older age. The plan is therefore to put away as much as possible in the high earning years and keep at it for as long as you can stomach it before either fully retiring or dropping down to a less demanding job. The target FIRE "pot" in that scenario will be a few million plus a mortgage-free house, not a few hundred k. Enough to sustain a solidly upper middle class lifestyle in a "HCOL" (high cost of living) area.

[Trif]

Condi said:

FIRE is talked about at times like working is the devils choice, which suggests people should change jobs, not live off beans for years to get away from it.

You have taken an extreme option in a niche topic and painted the entire view with it. How about looking at a more average route? A person earns 2x average salary and lives an average persons life and invests the remainder? Buying more consumerist goods does not buy them any more happiness. Expensive long haul holidays don't provide any additional pleasures then having a couple of long weekend breaks in Europe a year. I don't think I'll be ready to retire at 40 but by the same token I don't want to be clinging on to a middle management job in my late 60s telling myself that this is all that defines me. Buying a few more years of retirement doesn't sound so bad now does it?

You also ignore the first part of FIRE. Financial Independence. The ability to pursue a more fulfilling career despite its salary or start a business as you know your basic needs will forever be met through your independent wealth.

[sociopath]

I retired, or stopped working, when I was 56, I'm now 59, and I can't think of anything worse than working until I was 67.

Not regretted it once.

I appreciate I'm lucky and it's highly unlikely I'll run out of money, and firecalc agrees with me, even though I don't have multiple millions squirreled away, that some people seem to think is necessary.

I just have to make sure my once in a lifetime purchases really are that and not every year.

[red_slr]

xeny said:

aparna said:

Also it feels odd moving the 'stock return' slider just a little bit left or right and seeing my life plan morph so dramatically in front of my eyes .

This is why driving down fees is often emphasised heavily. There's little you can do to increase stock return, but reducing fees has much the same effect.

This.

[Welshbeef]

sociopath said:

I retired, or stopped working, when I was 56, I'm now 59, and I can't think of anything worse than working until I was 67.

Not regretted it once.

I appreciate I'm lucky and it's highly unlikely I'll run out of money, and firecalc agrees with me, even though I don't have multiple millions squirreled away, that some people seem to think is necessary.

I just have to make sure my once in a lifetime purchases really are that and not every year.

Assuming your garage is up to date being early retired and owning a cayman S is very good going.

[xeny]

Trif said:

Expensive long haul holidays don't provide any additional pleasures then having a couple of long weekend breaks in Europe a year.

Here I'd gently disagree (and I'm working towards a level of FI/RE). For me and all these things are personal preferences, having seen bits of the world that are hard/expensive to get to has been worth the extra year or so that it has probably added to my working life.

[Condi]

Trif said:

Buying more consumerist goods does not buy them any more happiness. Expensive long haul holidays don't provide any additional pleasures then having a couple of long weekend breaks in Europe a year. I don't think I'll be ready to retire at 40 but by the same token I don't want to be clinging on to a middle management job in my late 60s telling myself that this is all that defines me. Buying a few more years of retirement doesn't sound so bad now does it?

You also ignore the first part of FIRE. Financial Independence. The ability to pursue a more fulfilling career despite its salary or start a business as you know your basic needs will forever be met through your independent wealth.

Buying consumer goods doesn't equal happiness, but buying experiences does. Whether that be holidays, trackdays, scuba diving, good restaurants, or whatever your poison, those do bring satisfaction and happiness, and are rarely free.

Maybe why I don't understand is that I'm not in some depressing middle management job thinking that is all which defines me. Work can be/should be enjoyable.

[aparna]

What are the new crop of FIRE / Nomad bloggers like? I used to read money moustache and all that lot, about 10 years ago. Last time I checked, they had mostly gone back to work, given up the travelling, or got divorced.

I'm a bit more cynical these days I guess about pre 50 FIRE. The folk I know who are truly financially independent, often pretend they make a living mainly from their 'art' or their hobby jobs. It's (pretend) validation for their talents.

Conversely, those of more modest incomes who claim FI, are still on the make, one way or another.

[Welshbeef]

aparna said:

What are the new crop of FIRE / Nomad bloggers like? I used to read money moustache and all that lot, about 10 years ago. Last time I checked, they had mostly gone back to work, given up the travelling, or got divorced.

I'm a bit more cynical these days I guess about pre 50 FIRE. The folk I know who are truly financially independent, often pretend they make a living mainly from their 'art' or their hobby jobs. It's (pretend) validation for their talents.

Conversely, those of more modest incomes who claim FI, are still on the make, one way or another.

It must be lonely too - your mates clearly either most or all are not in the same situation. As such your either friendly with millionaire silver spoons (self made would unlikely be not working) retired pensioners down the allotment.

Also if you have kids you cannot simply go off and do things as you’ve responsibility. Take today one of ours had to come home from school mid morning - had we decided to say go to the beach for most of the day but back for pickup we’d have to have left the beach as soon as we had arrived.

[xeny]

Welshbeef said:

It must be lonely too - your mates clearly either most or all are not in the same situation. As such your either friendly with millionaire silver spoons (self made would unlikely be not working) retired pensioners down the allotment.

I don't see the difference in loneliness - if you're mates are working, then you're not seeing them during work hours, regardless of if you're early retired or not.

[red_slr]

aparna said:

What are the new crop of FIRE / Nomad bloggers like? I used to read money moustache and all that lot, about 10 years ago. Last time I checked, they had mostly gone back to work, given up the travelling, or got divorced.

I'm a bit more cynical these days I guess about pre 50 FIRE. The folk I know who are truly financially independent, often pretend they make a living mainly from their 'art' or their hobby jobs. It's (pretend) validation for their talents.

Conversely, those of more modest incomes who claim FI, are still on the make, one way or another.

I agree with some of that.

I think a lot of the bloggers simply did it as a way to get page views / freebies and sell their wares etc etc.
A lot of them sold e-books or online courses "look how you can be just like me". But in reality it was just something they were doing till the next big idea / trend came along. Travel vloggers are similar, IMHO. Most of it financed by daddies ca$h.

[red_slr]

xeny said:

Welshbeef said:

It must be lonely too - your mates clearly either most or all are not in the same situation. As such your either friendly with millionaire silver spoons (self made would unlikely be not working) retired pensioners down the allotment.

I don't see the difference in loneliness - if you're mates are working, then you're not seeing them during work hours, regardless of if you're early retired or not.

The reverse will apply to me. I work a lot, and my really busy months are right smack bang in the middle of when my mates are going to Le Mans, track days, lads weekends away and generally doing summery things.

[Welshbeef]

xeny said:

Welshbeef said:

It must be lonely too - your mates clearly either most or all are not in the same situation. As such your either friendly with millionaire silver spoons (self made would unlikely be not working) retired pensioners down the allotment.

I don't see the difference in loneliness - if you're mates are working, then you're not seeing them during work hours, regardless of if you're early retired or not.

How do people get husband and wife or man and man partner or lady and lady partner to both hit FIRE together? Clearly it would be unfeasible for one partner of the union to retire early and expect to live on a shoe string - but the other not and then in reality it’s the worker who keeps the other going. / become a home maker husband or significant other.

Or is FIRE more designed to singletons and those who cannot or do not want children.

Another question is why do FIRE individuals think it’s right not to be paying towards the state? The NHS the education the welfare state?
Do FIRE people elect not to get full state pension ie the 35 qualifying years which would be 53yo at the lowest. Takes big balls to laugh off state pension.

[NickCQ]

Welshbeef said:

Do FIRE people elect not to get full state pension ie the 35 qualifying years which would be 53yo at the lowest. Takes big balls to laugh off state pension.

Aren't there circumstances in which you can buy back years in which you didn't pay NI at quite a preferential rate? Effectively functioning as a supercharged pension contribution.

[Welshbeef]

NickCQ said:

Welshbeef said:

Do FIRE people elect not to get full state pension ie the 35 qualifying years which would be 53yo at the lowest. Takes big balls to laugh off state pension.

Aren't there circumstances in which you can buy back years in which you didn't pay NI at quite a preferential rate? Effectively functioning as a supercharged pension contribution.

About £800-900 a year yes. Do FIRE folk put that cost into their caps? As from some have posted they live on £12k a year all up - £1k hit to that for all the years of not filler NI stamp is a bit hit.

[sociopath]

Welshbeef said:

sociopath said:

I retired, or stopped working, when I was 56, I'm now 59, and I can't think of anything worse than working until I was 67.

Not regretted it once.

I appreciate I'm lucky and it's highly unlikely I'll run out of money, and firecalc agrees with me, even though I don't have multiple millions squirreled away, that some people seem to think is necessary.

I just have to make sure my once in a lifetime purchases really are that and not every year.

Assuming your garage is up to date being early retired and owning a cayman S is very good going.

I sold the Cayman earlier this year, wanted another fake snake, which I pick up in a couple of weeks.

[tighnamara]

Welshbeef said:

xeny said:

Welshbeef said:

It must be lonely too - your mates clearly either most or all are not in the same situation. As such your either friendly with millionaire silver spoons (self made would unlikely be not working) retired pensioners down the allotment.

I don't see the difference in loneliness - if you're mates are working, then you're not seeing them during work hours, regardless of if you're early retired or not.

How do people get husband and wife or man and man partner or lady and lady partner to both hit FIRE together? Clearly it would be unfeasible for one partner of the union to retire early and expect to live on a shoe string - but the other not and then in reality it’s the worker who keeps the other going. / become a home maker husband or significant other.

Or is FIRE more designed to singletons and those who cannot or do not want children.

Another question is why do FIRE individuals think it’s right not to be paying towards the state? The NHS the education the welfare state?
Do FIRE people elect not to get full state pension ie the 35 qualifying years which would be 53yo at the lowest. Takes big balls to laugh off state pension.

This was your previous comment "Surely people have no judgement on what other individuals choose to do / when they retire or don’t"

Yet you are now challenging morals of those retiring early of not contributing to the state, not sure where you are coming from with that one.

As you have said it is the individuals choice on when they want to retire, good on them for me if they are happy and content.