Brewdog shares
Discussion
Driver101 said:
Russ T Bolt said:
Driver101 said:
Russ T Bolt said:
Thought I would update this with my findings in case anybody is interested.
I contacted Brewdog questioning their right to change the percentage discount, given that when I purchased the shares it was a tiered offering, the more you bought the bigger the discount.
I have received a response explaining in detail why there is no breach of contract and that the rights attached to B shares are laid down in the Articles of Association. At the AGM in 2019 the majority vote was in favour of allowing the Company to alter the rights attaching to “B” Shares, including the discount levels.
That's not a fair way of explaining it. There wasn't a vote at the AGM. It only takes the major shareholders to vote to outweigh everyone else. This was pushed through without the minor shareholders knowledge or agreement. I contacted Brewdog questioning their right to change the percentage discount, given that when I purchased the shares it was a tiered offering, the more you bought the bigger the discount.
I have received a response explaining in detail why there is no breach of contract and that the rights attached to B shares are laid down in the Articles of Association. At the AGM in 2019 the majority vote was in favour of allowing the Company to alter the rights attaching to “B” Shares, including the discount levels.
As per earlier the prices of the core beers are cheaper than before. Although your discount is smaller the price of the beer is less. The shop used to be used by nearly only shareholders. The prices were too high. Now the prices of the beers are lower and the shop sells the majority of beer to unconnected customers now.
I disagree regarding the prices of the beers, I have already posted an example above of the closest match for the type of beer I drink, that has actually gone up.
I can't compare their other beer prices as I have never bought them.
Jet Black Heart Nitro is £3 per can in the supermarket. You can buy 4 cans directly from Brewdog for less and that's before discount. In the past is was cheaper buying from the supermarket even after discounts.
Your figures aren't impressive to be honest, buying from Brewdog saves 5p for 4 tins potentially with postage on top.
I guess the whole thing is moot, if they have stopped brewing the strong stout beers I won't be buying from them anyway so the discount doesn't matter. They seem to be heading towards being a mainstream brewer of session beers. Would be interested to know what they think their USP is now.
Russ T Bolt said:
Given how much Brewdog have reduced the Stout range, that was the closest comparison I could make to beers I have bought previously.
Your figures aren't impressive to be honest, buying from Brewdog saves 5p for 4 tins potentially with postage on top.
I guess the whole thing is moot, if they have stopped brewing the strong stout beers I won't be buying from them anyway so the discount doesn't matter. They seem to be heading towards being a mainstream brewer of session beers. Would be interested to know what they think their USP is now.
My figures aren't Impressive? Your figures aren't impressive to be honest, buying from Brewdog saves 5p for 4 tins potentially with postage on top.
I guess the whole thing is moot, if they have stopped brewing the strong stout beers I won't be buying from them anyway so the discount doesn't matter. They seem to be heading towards being a mainstream brewer of session beers. Would be interested to know what they think their USP is now.
Buying directly from a brewery rarely better supermarket prices, but you're now making a compliant about it.
I'm just telling what the costs are and what they used to be. It's been explained a few times about the discounts, but you're still finding ways to argue against the fact the prices are cheaper regardless of discounts. Prices are much lower just now and more so of you buy in volume.
The current saving with your discount is £1.80. Postage is a total separate discussion. Supermarkets charge for deliveries and have minimum orders. Brewdog also does free postage when you fill a box.
The current range is rubbish. That's what sells and Brewdog have had to make changes to save the company during Covid. Not only are they a brewery they have a chain of pubs which have been hit hard during Covid. The range will improve again, but it'll never be what it once was.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 12:30
Russ T Bolt said:
Driver101 said:
I'm just telling what the costs are and what they used to be.
I clearly missed that, can you repeat what the prices are now compared to what they used to be.Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 12:30
I could spend my life researching and documenting all the old v new prices. You sound like the type of guy that will try to make an argument regardless.
Ordering direct from Brewdog used to be considerably more expensive than buying from the supermarket. That's no longer true. The beers are either similarly priced or even cheaper. All the spirits are also now priced exactly the same as the supermarket. You've got your discount on top of those prices.
In the past everything was a good bit more expensive than the supermarket after discounts.
A few guys have tried to make an effort to explain things. I don't think it can be made any clearly.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 13:45
Driver101 said:
I could spend my life researching and documenting all the old v new prices. You sound like the type of guy that will try to make an argument regardless.
Ordering direct from Brewdog used to be considerably more expensive than buying from the supermarket. That's no longer true. The beers are either similarly priced or even cheaper. All the spirits are also now priced exactly the same as the supermarket. You've got your discount on top of those prices.
In the past everything was a good bit more expensive than the supermarket after discounts.
A few guys have tried to make an effort to explain things. I don't think it can be made any clearly.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 13:45
Do you work for Brewdog ? You are very defensive in responding to any negative post about them.
My issue is that they offered a level of discount to early investors in return for A greater investment.
They have reneged on that. Assuming the detail they sent me in their email is correct, they went to a lot of trouble from the start to make sure they could do that but not in a transparent manner.
I expect companies to honour lifetime benefits if offered in return for an increased investment.
You can sing their praises as much as you like, I don’t share your view.
Russ T Bolt said:
My mistake, i thought you said you had provided that information.
Do you work for Brewdog ? You are very defensive in responding to any negative post about them.
My issue is that they offered a level of discount to early investors in return for A greater investment.
They have reneged on that. Assuming the detail they sent me in their email is correct, they went to a lot of trouble from the start to make sure they could do that but not in a transparent manner.
I expect companies to honour lifetime benefits if offered in return for an increased investment.
You can sing their praises as much as you like, I don’t share your view.
Do you work for Brewdog ? You are very defensive in responding to any negative post about them.
My issue is that they offered a level of discount to early investors in return for A greater investment.
They have reneged on that. Assuming the detail they sent me in their email is correct, they went to a lot of trouble from the start to make sure they could do that but not in a transparent manner.
I expect companies to honour lifetime benefits if offered in return for an increased investment.
You can sing their praises as much as you like, I don’t share your view.
. Argument continuing by trying to discredit. I'm not an employee. I am only a shareholder just like you.
I've tried my best to explain a simple situation to you. Why it's caused you to become all irked and argumentative makes little sense to me.
Very defensive? When Brewdog gave a you a dishonest answer how/why the discount was removed I told you the truth. How defensive was that? You even got shirty at me when I told you what was the truth.
A beer that would have cost you more with your bigger discount now costs you less with your lower discount and you
feel you are being cheated out of something? Remember that with the reduced prices Brewdog are pulling in lots of new customers and increasing the value of your shares.
Many of the people that had their online discount reduced were the people with the minimum amount of shares from earlier raises. When the shares were split they had their discount level upgraded. It's been downgraded to what their investment was advertised at. The threshold to get the maximum discount was too high to invest in the company just to get that discount for years.
I'm not singing their praises. They do deserve some protection against a lot of the nonsense posted about them.
Driver101 said:
increasing the value of your shares.
Are they, though? You can't trade these shares, you don't get a dividend. Maybe if they get listed then you'll get a preferential rate of exchange and see some return of value, but for a lot of people who invested the idea of a long term discount was their "return" rather than any financial reward. At the moment, despite the increased sales you talk about, his shares are worth the same as they were when he was getting the discount. Each to their own, but I can understand why someone would be bitter about the reduced discount, especially if there is no way to withdraw your money or sell the shares you own. Otherwise, what is the point of even owning the shares at all?
Basically i chose to invest based on level of discount, i wasn’t expecting growth and the prospectus made much of how high the risk was of losing all of the investment.
I could have invested less and received a 10% discount, i chose not to. Yet I now find myself with the same discount.
There was no point in the uplift in investment it has transpired.
I could have invested less and received a 10% discount, i chose not to. Yet I now find myself with the same discount.
There was no point in the uplift in investment it has transpired.
Condi said:
Driver101 said:
increasing the value of your shares.
Are they, though? You can't trade these shares, you don't get a dividend. Maybe if they get listed then you'll get a preferential rate of exchange and see some return of value, but for a lot of people who invested the idea of a long term discount was their "return" rather than any financial reward. At the moment, despite the increased sales you talk about, his shares are worth the same as they were when he was getting the discount. Each to their own, but I can understand why someone would be bitter about the reduced discount, especially if there is no way to withdraw your money or sell the shares you own. Otherwise, what is the point of even owning the shares at all?
What's to be bitter about? The beer that would have cost someone £50 last year costs £40 this year, but because the discount was less you feel they've been harshly treated?
When there was the option of the 20% online discount Brewdog's prices were too high. They've now made the shop very competitive and had to reduce the top tier discount from 20% to 10%.
People bought shares just for the discount? Only a tiny percentage of shareholders use the online shop. The bar discounts remain unchanged.
Actually the bar discounts were improved. There is an additional discount for your designated local.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 17:11
So how much are the shares worth? Why is that such a hard question to answer?
I used to drink a few Brewdog beers, think I first encountered them on a Calais dash when that was worth it, which shows it must have been a long time ago.
Haven't had any since they sold their IPA cheaper to women, if they want to discriminate against the majority of their customers there are plenty of other companies that won't.
I used to drink a few Brewdog beers, think I first encountered them on a Calais dash when that was worth it, which shows it must have been a long time ago.
Haven't had any since they sold their IPA cheaper to women, if they want to discriminate against the majority of their customers there are plenty of other companies that won't.
ChocolateFrog said:
So how much are the shares worth? Why is that such a hard question to answer?
I used to drink a few Brewdog beers, think I first encountered them on a Calais dash when that was worth it, which shows it must have been a long time ago.
Haven't had any since they sold their IPA cheaper to women, if they want to discriminate against the majority of their customers there are plenty of other companies that won't.
It's only a three page thread. The answer is on page two. I used to drink a few Brewdog beers, think I first encountered them on a Calais dash when that was worth it, which shows it must have been a long time ago.
Haven't had any since they sold their IPA cheaper to women, if they want to discriminate against the majority of their customers there are plenty of other companies that won't.
The Pink Punk campaign was misunderstood by many. Clearly you too.
Edited by Driver101 on Friday 2nd April 17:53
Driver101 said:
The shares are bought and sold all the time.
They're not. There is no secondary market per say, with the exception of 1 day per year, subject to there being no share issue going on at the same time. The last auction day was Jan 2019 - over 2 years ago. There is certainly no free market whereby the shares can find their own value. Plus, because there are benefits when you buy from Brewdog as opposed to any secondary market, your "second hand" shares are worth less than a new share issue from the company, despite the fact that any new share issue would normally dilute the value of the existing shares. The value of new shares are set by the company, not decided by the market or based on any supply/demand relationship. In fact, to call it "shares" is an insult to share trading really. Crowdfunding is much more apt.
They are having a share issue at the moment, looking to raise £25m for "eco projects". That gives a valuation of £1.8bn for a company which in the 6 months up to 30th June made a loss of £8.1m and will certainly have incurred a much larger loss for the period from then to now, given the long term lockdown. Furthermore most share issues are to invest in the business in order to increase profitability or improve efficiency, Brewdog are instead planting a forest of trees in Scotland, and creating an extension lead from some local wind turbines to their brewery - which, btw, is almost completely pointless as they'll be importing from the grid anyway on low wind days and exporting on high wind days, the fact they have a "direct connection" just means the grid supply point for the turbines has moved, it doesn't mean any more or less energy is used/produced. Pure greenwashing.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with people investing, but to think that people are investing with the aim of making money is missing the point. Shareholders have little say over the direction of the business because the owners have preferential voting rights. Shareholders don't get dividends. It is much much more akin to crowdfunding than buying a stake in a business which you want a return on. People invest because they like the business, or like the discounts, or buy into the marketing. They don't sit down an work out a P/E valuation, ROCE or whatever your preferred metric is and use that as a reason to trade. Equally once invested, selling the shares is complicated and opaque.
Condi said:
Driver101 said:
The shares are bought and sold all the time.
They're not. There is no secondary market per say, with the exception of 1 day per year, All of your input to this thread is so badly wrong, yet you sound so confident you are right. You don't know what you're talking about.
Driver101 said:
Totally wrong again. They are bought and sold all the time. There is a guide to do it and even help if you need it.
All of your input to this thread is so badly wrong, yet you sound so confident you are right. You don't know what you're talking about.
Don't know why you're so unpleasant. Do you deliberately want to antagonise people into reacting badly so you can fake offendedness in an effort to get them banned like you do on the Scottish Football thread? All of your input to this thread is so badly wrong, yet you sound so confident you are right. You don't know what you're talking about.
Don't think it'll work as easily in the Finance forum. So perhaps you'd be as well to just f
k off.Driver101 said:
Totally wrong again. They are bought and sold all the time. There is a guide to do it and even help if you need it.
All of your input to this thread is so badly wrong, yet you sound so confident you are right. You don't know what you're talking about.
Where are they listed then? They're not, I even read the prospectus, let me quote for you.... All of your input to this thread is so badly wrong, yet you sound so confident you are right. You don't know what you're talking about.
"BrewDog is not yet listed on any stock exchange so shares can only be sold once a year via our trading platform (see page 24 for details)"
From the prospectus document published by Brewdog - https://www.brewdog.com/uk/equityforpunks/tomorrow...
Yes, you might find someone willing to buy them from you. But its not a listed or freely traded share issue, and my point about them being difficult and opaque to price is true because there is no price discovery. Your mate might give you £15 for them, but is that a good price? Who knows. The company value them at £25 each, but they have an incentive to price them high, so that is hardly a reliable reference. Without any price discovery, or any dividend, you are crowdfunding, not investing.
Condi said:
They're not. There is no secondary market per say, with the exception of 1 day per year, subject to there being no share issue going on at the same time. The last auction day was Jan 2019 - over 2 years ago. There is certainly no free market whereby the shares can find their own value. Plus, because there are benefits when you buy from Brewdog as opposed to any secondary market, your "second hand" shares are worth less than a new share issue from the company, despite the fact that any new share issue would normally dilute the value of the existing shares. The value of new shares are set by the company, not decided by the market or based on any supply/demand relationship.
In fact, to call it "shares" is an insult to share trading really. Crowdfunding is much more apt.
They are having a share issue at the moment, looking to raise £25m for "eco projects". That gives a valuation of £1.8bn for a company which in the 6 months up to 30th June made a loss of £8.1m and will certainly have incurred a much larger loss for the period from then to now, given the long term lockdown. Furthermore most share issues are to invest in the business in order to increase profitability or improve efficiency, Brewdog are instead planting a forest of trees in Scotland, and creating an extension lead from some local wind turbines to their brewery - which, btw, is almost completely pointless as they'll be importing from the grid anyway on low wind days and exporting on high wind days, the fact they have a "direct connection" just means the grid supply point for the turbines has moved, it doesn't mean any more or less energy is used/produced. Pure greenwashing.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with people investing, but to think that people are investing with the aim of making money is missing the point. Shareholders have little say over the direction of the business because the owners have preferential voting rights. Shareholders don't get dividends. It is much much more akin to crowdfunding than buying a stake in a business which you want a return on. People invest because they like the business, or like the discounts, or buy into the marketing. They don't sit down an work out a P/E valuation, ROCE or whatever your preferred metric is and use that as a reason to trade. Equally once invested, selling the shares is complicated and opaque.
100% correct, whatever In fact, to call it "shares" is an insult to share trading really. Crowdfunding is much more apt.
They are having a share issue at the moment, looking to raise £25m for "eco projects". That gives a valuation of £1.8bn for a company which in the 6 months up to 30th June made a loss of £8.1m and will certainly have incurred a much larger loss for the period from then to now, given the long term lockdown. Furthermore most share issues are to invest in the business in order to increase profitability or improve efficiency, Brewdog are instead planting a forest of trees in Scotland, and creating an extension lead from some local wind turbines to their brewery - which, btw, is almost completely pointless as they'll be importing from the grid anyway on low wind days and exporting on high wind days, the fact they have a "direct connection" just means the grid supply point for the turbines has moved, it doesn't mean any more or less energy is used/produced. Pure greenwashing.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with people investing, but to think that people are investing with the aim of making money is missing the point. Shareholders have little say over the direction of the business because the owners have preferential voting rights. Shareholders don't get dividends. It is much much more akin to crowdfunding than buying a stake in a business which you want a return on. People invest because they like the business, or like the discounts, or buy into the marketing. They don't sit down an work out a P/E valuation, ROCE or whatever your preferred metric is and use that as a reason to trade. Equally once invested, selling the shares is complicated and opaque.
Groat said:
Don't know why you're so unpleasant. Do you deliberately want to antagonise people into reacting badly so you can fake offendedness in an effort to get them banned like you do on the Scottish Football thread?
Don't think it'll work as easily in the Finance forum. So perhaps you'd be as well to just fk off.
Unpleasant? Don't think it'll work as easily in the Finance forum. So perhaps you'd be as well to just f
k off.I've never reported a single post of yours on any of the football threads. You got yourself banned from them all by yourself.I can count on one hand how many posts I've reported on PH since I've been here.
It's clearly you that is taking offence and getting involved in something that has nothing to do with you. It's not me that has the personal problems.
Better to take your own advice.
I remember looking into the detail of one of their "funding rounds" a few years ago and it certainly didn't seem then that I was going to see any investment gain of note, and certainly no income aside from the discounts. To make the "investment" provide a "return" in the form of discounts I worked out at the time that I would have to drink (at home) pretty much nothing else but Brewdog - while I do drink some occasionally, I couldn't restrict myself to that extent, particularly when there are loads of other independent Scottish brewers producing better tasting stuff.
None of the bars I have been to I liked that much, whether due to very loud music (Lothian road), dingy interior (Cowgate), or not great tasting beer (Merchant City area) - I am probably outside their target demographic though!
None of the bars I have been to I liked that much, whether due to very loud music (Lothian road), dingy interior (Cowgate), or not great tasting beer (Merchant City area) - I am probably outside their target demographic though!
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