Private schools, times a changing?

[Ken_Code]

M1AGM said:

Oxford and Cambridge actively discriminate against private school applicants these days so you are probably correct on that assumption.

As for the other drivel about sending kids to private school so they appear less stupid is for the birds, just comes across as another chip on shoulder comment based on personal prejudice.

Based on twenty years of interviewing people for jobs in investment banking.

I can see though that I’ve touched a nerve with some people who are doing exactly that; hoping private school will give their mediocre offspring a step up.

[EmBe]

Ken_Code said:

I can see though that I’ve touched a nerve with some people who are doing exactly that; hoping private school will give their mediocre offspring a step up.

What a charmer. We've discovered cheesey's alter ego......

[Tom8]

Ken_Code said:

Tom8 said:

Based on your own rationale, you would have greatly benefited from one.

How so? I went from my state comprehensive to Oxford, on to CERN and have a good career in investment banking.

I don’t really see that a private school could have seen me doing any better than that.

If my children were ever to struggle at school I’d happily pay for them to go private, but they are doing very well, so there’s no need.

So you've never been to a private school and you don't send your children to one but you know that all kids in private schools are a bit thick and need private education to help them like some special needs centre?

Perhaps you are too tight and uncaring to want to invest in your children and spend everything on yourself, fair enough, each to their own.

Edited by Tom8 on Friday 10th May 10:02

[Austin_Metro]

EmBe said:

Ken_Code said:

I can see though that I’ve touched a nerve with some people who are doing exactly that; hoping private school will give their mediocre offspring a step up.

What a charmer. We've discovered cheesey's alter ego......

I don’t think so. I’m quite interested in what he’s saying. It’s a “road less travelled” point. My education and progress were similar to Ken’s. He thinks he couldn’t have done better with a private education, I suspect I could have benefitted. Neither of us actually knows or can change it.

[Ken_Code]

Tom8 said:

So you've never been to a private school and you don't send your children to one but you know that all kids in private schools are a bit thick and need private education to help them like some special needs centre?

Perhaps you are too tight and uncaring to want to invest in your children and spend everything on yourself, fair enough, each to their own.

Edited by Tom8 on Friday 10th May 10:02

As I wrote above, I’ll be happy to pay if my children ever need it. I’m sorry that yours do, but getting angry at it isn’t going to help them or you.

[NDA]

Ken_Code said:

The entire point of private schools is to take less capable children and make them seem clever.

Are you saying that the exam boards marking GCSE and A Level papers deliberately award higher results to private school pupils?

[Ken_Code]

NDA said:

Are you saying that the exam boards marking GCSE and A Level papers deliberately award higher results to private school pupils?

No, I’m saying that with enough effort even a mediocre child can get good A-Level grades.

The underperformance at university of private school pupils relative to those from state schools is pretty solid evidence of that, it shows them reverting to their natural level quite quickly afterwards.

It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.

Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.

Edited to add this article explaining the data in more detail.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-...

[M1AGM]

So a condescending prick too, product of your environment no doubt.

[Louis Balfour]

One of my children finishes their private school education today.

Every last penny well spent.

They were struggling in the state sector with an undiagnosed learning difficulty. Once in independent education it was spotted almost immediately, addressed and the child has absolutely flown. They have gone from being an insular and frightened person to being confident, astute and well educated.

It is a shame that VAT will, if it arrives, deprive many children of that opportunity. If you believe that VAT will enable every child that opportunity you are wrong.

[EmBe]

Austin_Metro said:

EmBe said:

Ken_Code said:

I can see though that I’ve touched a nerve with some people who are doing exactly that; hoping private school will give their mediocre offspring a step up.

What a charmer. We've discovered cheesey's alter ego......

I don’t think so. I’m quite interested in what he’s saying. It’s a “road less travelled” point. My education and progress were similar to Ken’s. He thinks he couldn’t have done better with a private education, I suspect I could have benefitted. Neither of us actually knows or can change it.

I actually went to Ampleforth on a partial scholarship for what would now be Yr 7 but my parents business went through some hard times so I ended up at the local comp.
I coasted through my state school and got 10 O levels, all grade A. Couldn't have done better if I'd remained at Ampleforth, right?
So then I coasted through 6th form and completely failed my A levels (well, I got an A in General Studies....) - no one pushed me, in fact no one spotted I wasn't achieveing what my O levels predicted and I was too busy discovering beer, cars and girls to care.

Meanwhile my wife, who has dyslexia was put in the bottom set for everything at her state school and is only now, in her forties discovering and capitalising on her love for literature and the abilities she has in that field.

We've worked hard since school, but I'm convinced that we were both lost inside the state school system and I don't think much has changed as we're seeing similar with one of my nieces at the moment, she's incredibly bright but there's no path for her to achieve what she's capable of. Whereas my mediocre offspring has additional needs (not limited to her inherited dyslexia) and her private school not only caters for her, but is helping her to achieve far more that we could ever have dreamed she would.

It's all anecdotal however, and I agree - we'll never know for sure - but our experiences, and her experience in the state sector up to Y4 are what drove us to send our daughter private, we could see history repeating.

Edited by EmBe on Friday 10th May 10:49

[ettore]

M1AGM said:

So a condescending prick too, product of your environment no doubt.

Ken is actually revealing one of the reasons that may well influence someone’s school choice.

[ClaphamGT3]

Ken_Code said:

NDA said:

Are you saying that the exam boards marking GCSE and A Level papers deliberately award higher results to private school pupils?

No, I’m saying that with enough effort even a mediocre child can get good A-Level grades.

The underperformance at university of private school pupils relative to those from state schools is pretty solid evidence of that, it shows them reverting to their natural level quite quickly afterwards.

It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.

Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.

Edited to add this article explaining the data in more detail.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/news/state-...

Turning this on it's head and looking at your argument from the maintained sector perspective rather than the independent sector one is where your argument unravels.

A quick look at your profile tells us that you have clearly pulled yourself up by your boot-straps and done pretty well for yourself. Good for you but the issue is that, for every heart-warming tale of the working class lad done good, there are literally thousands of children who do not reach their potential in the maintained sector. This is particularly acute for white boys, who statistically perform worst of all demographics in the maintained sector.

You may not like it, it may not be fair, you may personally feel that it diminishes your own accomplishments but the reality is that independent schools are, as a rule, night-and-day better at bringing out the fullest potential in their pupils than the maintained sector. For as long as that remains the case, parents will buy education where they can and their children will do better than the equivalent kid coming through the maintained sector

[ooid]

Ken_Code said:

Based on twenty years of interviewing people for jobs in investment banking.

I can see though that I’ve touched a nerve with some people who are doing exactly that; hoping private school will give their mediocre offspring a step up.

Calling kids at school age "mediocre" -wherever they study- is quite a deep insult.

I must say, I used to see pretty unrefined and ill-mannered people at IB due to probably toxic work environments and sadly it might still be the case.

[NDA]

Ken_Code said:

It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.

Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.

I've been responsible for the hiring of many people over the years - one of my previous firms employed 50,000 globally. I have never heard of any employer 'discounting' the grades of privately educated candidates. Are these employers accepting the degree qualifications, but somehow discounting A Level gained at private schools?

Apologies if this is too nuanced for you to grasp.

[Austin_Metro]

NDA said:

Ken_Code said:

It’s why employers and universities rightly discount the grades of pupils from these schools.

Apologies if this is too complex a chain of reasoning for you to follow.

I've been responsible for the hiring of many people over the years - one of my previous firms employed 50,000 globally. I have never heard of any employer 'discounting' the grades of privately educated candidates. Are these employers accepting the degree qualifications, but somehow discounting A Level gained at private schools?

Apologies if this is too nuanced for you to grasp.

I’ve done a lot of hiring too. And yes, I think an A* A level from a state school is worth more than one from St Paul’s.

I’m not ruling either candidate out, but I am looking at the profile as a whole.

[NDA]

I've pretty much only recruited graduates rather that people straight out of school.

I have never discounted degrees based on discounting GCSE's or A Levels. Odd.

[Cheib]

Notreallymeeither said:

My daughters (14 and 12) are coming up to the important years (GCSEs next year for the elder one) so unless something really bad happens to my earning potential there is no way I will be changing their school. This will come at a cost to me (fees are £5k a term each so £30k a year - meaning £6k VAT potentially).

That £500 a month is basically any discretionary spend I have - so the local economy and other areas I spend that discretionary spend on will not benefit by this amount.

It will instead go in to central coffers for use in whatever fantastic way the government decides (which is great, as governments of both colour have been exceptional in how they invest taxpayer money…….)

I am sure sad violins will be playing loudly for me - but I won’t be getting a new bathroom done or going to the local pub or buying any new items in town or getting Indian takeaways etc. Whilst one person won’t have much impact, multiply that impact by however many parents will be in a similar squeezed position (most of them I suspect) and you can see that spending in to the local economy by the slightly higher earners is going to take a nosedive.

Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 13:34

Edited by Notreallymeeither on Monday 6th May 13:36

Great post. This is the reality of a change in taxation like the proposed increase in VAT on school fees. It is not a “zero sum” game. The vast majority of parents will reallocate spending just as described here…it is what we’re going to do. Like most taxes like this they never raise the money hoped for…there will be less kids going to private schools and there will be less money being spent in other areas of the economy.

[Austin_Metro]

NDA said:

I've pretty much only recruited graduates rather that people straight out of school.

I have never discounted degrees based on discounting GCSE's or A Levels. Odd.

I don’t think I’m saying that. From your other posts, I suspect we might both be recruiting professionally qualified post grads in the main. I did a lot of it for about 10 years. I got a lot of good CVs, littered with firsts and A*, I’m more impressed by a State school a* than a private one.

[Hedgedhog]

cheesejunkie said:

There's a good rule of thumb, anyone talking about hardworking taxpayers is usually looking to avoid paying tax.

There’s an another good rule of thumb, those who talk the loudest and with the least concern about paying more tax are generally those who pay the least, if any.

[Tom8]

Hedgedhog said:

cheesejunkie said:

There's a good rule of thumb, anyone talking about hardworking taxpayers is usually looking to avoid paying tax.

There’s an another good rule of thumb, those who talk the loudest and with the least concern about paying more tax are generally those who pay the least, if any.

And this is the debate about taxation. If tax was fair or well spend people would not avoid/evade. This is why tax reductions generally result in greater receipts trough enticing more individuals and corporates into the economy. Punitive taxation does the opposite.

I will always avoid as much tax as I possibly can. Always amazes me those moaning about people should pay more, never offer to contribute more themselves. Always someone else's responsibility.