Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Sadly, the unpalatable reality is that combustion is always more efficient and cleaner when centralised for energy generation. Which is why they will eventually come for our gas boilers as well.

Not sure I follow the logic giving condensing boilers are about as efficient as combustion gets.

Centralised combustion will always be more efficient. It can also be scrubbed and takes place away from significant populations. It doesn't matter how efficient millions of individual gas boilers are their exhaust isn't scrubbed and they're emitting in the worst location. Then on top of that you have 4m servicing events which are each inefficient as they require 4m vehicle journeys.

Shifting to electricity from personal combustion and generating that electricity at focussed points is always going to be the superior solution bar the immediate financial cost.

[J__Wood]

Well colour me greenish
Renewable energy passes 30% of world’s electricity supply https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/20...

[TheDeuce]

J__Wood said:

Well colour me greenish
Renewable energy passes 30% of world’s electricity supply https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/20...

We'll be at 50% soon(ish) in the UK.

It's quite a milestone for the world at large though. And only a little more is required to stop the growth of fossil fuel usage and put it into a steady decline. That'll be a particularly big milestone.

[DonkeyApple]

J__Wood said:

Well colour me greenish
Renewable energy passes 30% of world’s electricity supply https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/20...

All thanks to China. The largest generator and helping everyone else by supplying the systems. Great people. It's why everyone loves 'em.

[heebeegeetee]

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

[otolith]

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

That it's missing certain bits of information.

Specifically, how it makes the hydrogen, where the energy comes from to make the hydrogen, and why they're doing it.

[TheDeuce]

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

At a guess a huge amount of the energy released in the last combustion cycle has to go into extracting the H2 from the H2o for the following cycle - so a large amount of water required to produce a relatively low amount of final drive power. All a guess - I haven't heard of what you appear to be describing before.

If I'm vaguely correct it could be useful for making an overly complex and slightly slower than you would hope leisure boat? But on the plus side it would probably need a lot of maintenance

[DonkeyApple]

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

Not sure. The military were testing aluminium as a fuel source as it can be transported more easily than liquid fuel and the water for it to react with to create hydrogen can be obtained at the front line.

The other way to split water is thermolysis but that needs a heat source which I imagine needs to be greater than any combustion heat that could be scavenged.

[otolith]

TheDeuce said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

At a guess a huge amount of the energy released in the last combustion cycle has to go into extracting the H2 from the H2o for the following cycle - so a large amount of water required to produce a relatively low amount of final drive power. All a guess - I haven't heard of what you appear to be describing before.

"A huge amount" being "considerably more than all of it", because thermodynamics.

[TheDeuce]

otolith said:

TheDeuce said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

At a guess a huge amount of the energy released in the last combustion cycle has to go into extracting the H2 from the H2o for the following cycle - so a large amount of water required to produce a relatively low amount of final drive power. All a guess - I haven't heard of what you appear to be describing before.

"A huge amount" being "considerably more than all of it", because thermodynamics.

You mean the H2o released from an amount of water, when combusted, wouldn't be sufficient to power the extraction of the same quantity from the next amount of water?

[98elise]

TheDeuce said:

otolith said:

TheDeuce said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

At a guess a huge amount of the energy released in the last combustion cycle has to go into extracting the H2 from the H2o for the following cycle - so a large amount of water required to produce a relatively low amount of final drive power. All a guess - I haven't heard of what you appear to be describing before.

"A huge amount" being "considerably more than all of it", because thermodynamics.

You mean the H2o released from an amount of water, when combusted, wouldn't be sufficient to power the extraction of the same quantity from the next amount of water?

Assuming you mean the hydrogen rather than water then yes of course it wouldn't be sufficient to extract the same amount of hydrogen. That would break the laws of thermodynamics.

Where is the energy coming from to crack the hydrogen?

[otolith]

TheDeuce said:

You mean the H2o released from an amount of water, when combusted, wouldn't be sufficient to power the extraction of the same quantity from the next amount of water?

I mean the energy captured by burning a quantity of hydrogen in an ICE would not be enough to generate from water the same quantity of hydrogen that went in - you can't make a perpetual motion machine that way, let alone extract any useful work.

[tamore]

where do i invest in this?

my share of the magic bean farm is going great guns apparently.

[TheDeuce]

98elise said:

TheDeuce said:

otolith said:

TheDeuce said:

heebeegeetee said:

Hi all. I have just seen a reference to a Yamaha developed system that creates hydrogen from h2o an instant before injection (presumably into the cylinder).

What do we know about this, please?

At a guess a huge amount of the energy released in the last combustion cycle has to go into extracting the H2 from the H2o for the following cycle - so a large amount of water required to produce a relatively low amount of final drive power. All a guess - I haven't heard of what you appear to be describing before.

"A huge amount" being "considerably more than all of it", because thermodynamics.

You mean the H2o released from an amount of water, when combusted, wouldn't be sufficient to power the extraction of the same quantity from the next amount of water?

Assuming you mean the hydrogen rather than water then yes of course it wouldn't be sufficient to extract the same amount of hydrogen. That would break the laws of thermodynamics.

Where is the energy coming from to crack the hydrogen?

I assumed as much, although I don't claim to have any knowledge of the enery rquired to free the h2 form the h20, or the energy that can be released by igniting that extracted amount.

I suppose it should be obvious though, that the elements are bound by energy in the first place so... probably a significant amount more than the energy that can be released from crudely blowing up the extracted gas.

[TheDeuce]

so anyway, science lesson aside, how exactly does Suzuki think this can work or be useful? I can't find their own description of the process anywhere..

[otolith]

Yamaha have an outboard engine which runs on (cylinders of) hydrogen, maybe it’s that with a bit of internet mangling?

[J__Wood]

TheDeuce said:

so anyway, science lesson aside, how exactly does Suzuki think this can work or be useful? I can't find their own description of the process anywhere..

Do the Japanese Government do grants/subsidies for this type of unicorn science? Follow the money?

[TheDeuce]

J__Wood said:

TheDeuce said:

so anyway, science lesson aside, how exactly does Suzuki think this can work or be useful? I can't find their own description of the process anywhere..

Do the Japanese Government do grants/subsidies for this type of unicorn science? Follow the money?

I'm going to guess yes, like every other car manufacturing country with befuddled politicians..

[GT9]

J__Wood said:

Do the Japanese Government do grants/subsidies for this type of unicorn science? Follow the money?

If they sent it to Suzuki instead of Yamaha, that trail won't help much...
Presume Deuce meant Yamaha.
The concept sound like an attempt to recover the waste heat from the engine using thermolysis, as mentioned by DA.
Possibly something along the lines of pushing the engine's thermal efficiency to approach that of a fuel cell, to reduce the amount of compressed hydrogen consumed per mile and thus the amount stored in the vehicle.
We should all be aware of gaseous hydrogen's dismal volumetric energy density by now.
The vehicle will have a separate water tank of course.
Exhaust gas temperatures being below 1000C probably mean a combination of heat and electrolysis, such as this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper–chlorin...
Somewhere along the way, an electricity source is required from the engine, maybe from a starter/generator on the crank.

[TheDeuce]

GT9 said:

J__Wood said:

Do the Japanese Government do grants/subsidies for this type of unicorn science? Follow the money?

If they sent it to Suzuki instead of Yamaha, that trail won't help much...
Presume Deuce meant Yamaha.
The concept sound like an attempt to recover the waste heat from the engine using thermolysis, as mentioned by DA.
Possibly something along the lines of pushing the engine's thermal efficiency to approach that of a fuel cell, to reduce the amount of compressed hydrogen consumed per mile and thus the amount stored in the vehicle.
We should all be aware of gaseous hydrogen's dismal volumetric energy density by now.
The vehicle will have a separate water tank of course.
Exhaust gas temperatures being below 1000C probably mean a combination of heat and electrolysis, such as this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper–chlorin...
Somewhere along the way, an electricity source is required from the engine, maybe from a starter/generator on the crank.

Suzuki/Yamaha

So they take what would be wasted heat energy and use that to extract what is presumably a very small amount of additional hydrogen from the water.. doesn't sound transformational tbh. It doesn't even sound worth the complexity.