EVs... no one wants them!

[survivalist]

740EVTORQUES said:

Yes, that's complete nonsense.

I've had NA manuals, DCT's, a sequential straight cut gearbox in a track car, and nothing can equal the instant torque of an EV, it's laugh out loud shocking.

It's also why the forthcoming EV sports/ supercars from Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus etc may well be game changing.

Not sure why you’d think that. Supercars generally have 3 things that appeal:

Looks
Performance
Driver Engagement

I can already buy a load of EVs that can hit 0-60 in around 3 seconds.

EVs have a pretty poor level of driver engagement once the thrill of the accessible performance wears off.

So it’s really down to looks / display of wealth.

[Big Nanas]

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

[MightyBadger]

740EVTORQUES said:

Yes, that's complete nonsense.

I've had NA manuals, DCT's, a sequential straight cut gearbox in a track car, and nothing can equal the instant torque of an EV, it's laugh out loud shocking.

It's also why the forthcoming EV sports/ supercars from Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus etc may well be game changing.

Let hope they depreciate slower than a Taycan.

[TheRainMaker]

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I own one.

[740EVTORQUES]

I have an EV that can do 0-60 in 3.4 secs, and a petrol car that can do it in well under 3 seconds. The EV actually feels faster, probably because you're not expecting it and that instant hit of torque from standstill is overwhelming. It's shocking! (in a good way). You never get bored of it.

[Big Nanas]

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I own one.

Do you honestly not think the response is leagues ahead of an ICE auto box? As ive said, ive had auto boxes from '92 and this is night and day difference.

[survivalist]

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I think that it’s easy to forget what an old school hatch actually feels like unless you still own one.

Driven a few i3s and they feel like a fast mini MVP to me. You sit very high and the controls are all very light and vague.

It does have a pleasing amount of power compared to most similar vehicles, but it’s no hot hatch.

If anything it reminded me of an Audi A2 without the diesel clatter.

[Big Nanas]

survivalist said:

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I think that it’s easy to forget what an old school hatch actually feels like unless you still own one.

Driven a few i3s and they feel like a fast mini MVP to me. You sit very high and the controls are all very light and vague.

It does have a pleasing amount of power compared to most similar vehicles, but it’s no hot hatch.

If anything it reminded me of an Audi A2 without the diesel clatter.

sure, I get that.
My friends had aa 1.9gti Peugeot , and a Renault GT Turbo, but I couldn't drive those.
My point is, the i3s is as 'close as' to a hot hatch as you can get. Compared with the current cars, you can't argue too much surely.
All I can say is with my limited experience, my i3s gives an incredible throttle response compared with my previous ICE vehicles.

[MightyBadger]

Everyones favourite
https://youtu.be/LBn8APWdMxE?si=YR1xAhvRE6JsjZdK

[riskyj]

MightyBadger said:

Everyones favourite
https://youtu.be/LBn8APWdMxE?si=YR1xAhvRE6JsjZdK

Some of the comments on that video…not sure if people are taking the piss or genuinely that thick.

[Janluke]

LowTread said:

Maracus said:

confused_buyer said:

Janluke said:

Just checking, are you saying on a 3 pin lead you can still add 120 miles over night (12 hours)?
If so you're right I hadn't realised that. Can you still get cheaper overnight tariffs without a home charger?

The maximum a 3-pin lead can do is 13 amps although most which come with EVs are limited to 10 amps to give a bit of overhead on the socket and the home circuit.

13 x 230v = 2.99Kw/h. Most Evs do something in the range of 3-4 miles per kwh. So per hour max you could add is 12 miles. In 12 hours you could add 144 miles.

This is absolute maximum. In practice at 10 amps (2.3kw/h) and a little bit of transmission loss and doing 3m/kw you'd be looking at 7 miles range per hour or 84 miles in 12 hours.

My mate's wife has a Model 3 RWD, she's uses the granny charger overnight.

Has no need for the max range every day, so it works perfectly for her.

You'll add around 8 miles per hour on a 3 pin.

Octopus gives you 23:30-05:30 by default, so you're only adding ~50 miles per night.

However, Intelligent Octopus will give you more hours than that. I often saw 15-16 hours of cheap rate, which applies for the whole house, so long as Octopus are the ones initiating the charging. If you start it yourself then that doesn't count.

It's entirely possible to live with an EV on a 3 pin unless you're doing back-to-back days of 100+miles.

Many thanks

Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)

[tamore]

Janluke said:

Many thanks

Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)

depends on the battery chemistry onboard. LFP batteries prefer being charged to max. older chemistries (like NMC) are better not being charged to over 80% unless being used that day. it's changing pretty rapidly and some of the advances coming from the likes of CATL are incredible.

[Fastdruid]

survivalist said:

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I think that it’s easy to forget what an old school hatch actually feels like unless you still own one.

Driven a few i3s and they feel like a fast mini MVP to me. You sit very high and the controls are all very light and vague.

It does have a pleasing amount of power compared to most similar vehicles, but it’s no hot hatch.

If anything it reminded me of an Audi A2 without the diesel clatter.

Ignoring the whole powertrain aspect, IMO the seating position and cabin is just if not more important to how a car feels.

Many years needing a more sensible family car ago we swapped an RX-8 for an 6 MPS. The MPS is faster 0-60 and the very old school turbo feel about how it made its power (particularly after the smooth RX-8) made it feel very quick... but the RX-8 *felt* a faster more special car even when you were just stationary while the MPS was just a fast saloon.

I'm not going to argue with how well the i3 handles (or doesn't), I've never driven one. But I do know that no matter how well it may drive I'd *RATHER* have something with a lower seating position/height (I think my current car is too high and that's 3in lower than an i3, the MPS is some 6in lower than the i3 and the RX-8 almost 10in lower!)

This is a problem partly with EV's (because the "skateboard" design works so well), partly with pedestrian safety but probably mostly with "fashion" and the trend for SUV's, Cross-overs and all sorts of other stuff. Unfortunately I seem to be in the minority who wants a lower vehicle as every manufacturer seems to be competing for how much taller they can make their new models!

[NDA]

Janluke said:

Many thanks

Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)

Yes, slower charging (ie not 'supercharging') is better for ultimate battery life - however, most owners probably wouldn't notice much difference in degradation over 4 or 5 years. As previously mentioned, it's normally to charged to 80%.

EV powering is different to ICE. With petrol you tend to drive to empty and then fill to full. With an EV you generally plug it in when you get home and forget about it until you next need the car. You never run it close to empty (which doesn't do the battery too much good either as it happens). So yes, top up every day. Also charging from, say, 5% to 100% would take a very long time... most charges I do are probably 40% to 80% in my 12,000 mile year.

Batteries should last for 1,500 cycles as they have pretty sophisticated battery management tech. Their theoretical life would therefore be around 500,000 miles. I'd be happy with 150,000.

[Tindersticks]

riskyj said:

Some of the comments on that video…not sure if people are taking the piss or genuinely that thick.

He sure knows his audience

[loudlashadjuster]

NDA said:

Janluke said:

Many thanks

Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)

Yes, slower charging (ie not 'supercharging') is better for ultimate battery life - however, most owners probably wouldn't notice much difference in degradation over 4 or 5 years. As previously mentioned, it's normally to charged to 80%.

EV powering is different to ICE. With petrol you tend to drive to empty and then fill to full. With an EV you generally plug it in when you get home and forget about it until you next need the car. You never run it close to empty (which doesn't do the battery too much good either as it happens). So yes, top up every day. Also charging from, say, 5% to 100% would take a very long time... most charges I do are probably 40% to 80% in my 12,000 mile year.

Batteries should last for 1,500 cycles as they have pretty sophisticated battery management tech. Their theoretical life would therefore be around 500,000 miles. I'd be happy with 150,000.

Indeed. We all have phones that we just plug in when we need to, usually just overnight, and we’ve adapted perfectly well to that.

Sure, sometime we get caught out and need to charge at work, borrow a cable, or ask the barman if we can leave it behind the bar for an hour etc., but in general it works fine.

And for the overwhelming number of people they won’t *need* to charge a car overnight, every night.

Wouldn’t it be better if our phones lasted a week on a charge like a Nokia 2110? Of course, but the performance/size/longevity compromise is one we’ve come to accept, at least until some fancy new chemistry comes along and gives us a month of phone battery life and 2,000 mile range in our super lightweight EVs

Edited by loudlashadjuster on Saturday 11th May 06:54

[romft123]

Indeed. We all have phones that we just plug in when we need to, usually just overnight, and we’ve adapted perfectly well to that.

Sure, sometime we get caught out and need to charge at work, borrow a cable, or ask the barman if we can leave it behind the bar for an hour etc., but in general it works fine.

And for the overwhelming number of people they won’t *need* to charge a car overnight, every night.

Wouldn’t it be better if our phones lasted a week on a charge like a Nokia 2110? Of course, but the performance/size/longevity compromise is one we’ve come to accept, at least until some fancy new chemistry comes along and gives us a month of phone battery life and 2,000 mile range in our super lightweight EVs

Edited by loudlashadjuster on Saturday 11th May 06:54

[/quote]

I can hear heads exploding all over the "IHATEEVSLAND"

[TheRainMaker]

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

TheRainMaker said:

Big Nanas said:

The revelation when I first drove an EV was the instant throttle response, it was laugh-out-loud fun.

Big Nanas said:

My Ev (BMW i3s)

I'm not sure I would call the throttle response on an i3s "laugh-out-loud fun"

I guess it depends on what you have been used to.

Have you driven one?
I've had my i3s for nearly 4 years and it's genuinely fun. Lightweight, rear wheel drive, 0-60 in around 6.5 seconds. It's very close to an old school hot hatch.
I've loved it, and far more fun than many of my previous 'mundane' cars.

I own one.

Do you honestly not think the response is leagues ahead of an ICE auto box? As ive said, ive had auto boxes from '92 and this is night and day difference.

My comment was purely on your "laugh-out-loud fun" statement. While it is "nippy", and I love the car, it's not really that fast, to be honest.

On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in

Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.

[Oilchange]

I also think petrol cars have been hamstrung over the course of time with things like limited throttle travel etc
Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.

[GT9]

Oilchange said:

I also think petrol cars have been hamstrung over the course of time with things like limited throttle travel etc
Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.

I think it's more inherent than that.
We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.