EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
TheRainMaker said:
My comment was purely on your "laugh-out-loud fun" statement. While it is "nippy", and I love the car, it's not really that fast, to be honest.
On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
One advantage of EVs is that it’s much easier to have endless adjustability.On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
My EV is smooth with a gentle ‘throttle’ map in ECO yet neck snapping in ‘GT’ mode (badly chosen term, there’s nothing GT about it)
I find that EVs feel even faster than they actually are, which goes a long way to compensate for the lack of engine noise to create a sense of excitement.
GT9 said:
Oilchange said:
I also think petrol cars have been hamstrung over the course of time with things like limited throttle travel etc
Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
I think it's more inherent than that.Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.
KingGary said:
GT9 said:
Oilchange said:
I also think petrol cars have been hamstrung over the course of time with things like limited throttle travel etc
Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
I think it's more inherent than that.Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.
KingGary said:
GT9 said:
Oilchange said:
I also think petrol cars have been hamstrung over the course of time with things like limited throttle travel etc
Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
I think it's more inherent than that.Rarely do you see a car tuned fully for power, on throttle bodies with instant throttle response. Electric cars come as standard with full power on tap and no emissions gubbins to strangle them (obviously).
So EVs have the advantage from the outset.
We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.
Engine + gearbox is trying hard to mimic what an electric motor does naturally.
Boosting a smaller capacity engine clearly helps, but turbocharging does a better job more of the time than a supercharger.
Either way, the engine still needs a gearbox.
The fundamental thing that drives all of this is that the power to cruise in a car at any given speed (under 100 mph) is a tiny fraction of the power required to accelerate quickly from that speed.
An electric motor has all the bases cover in that respect, and doesn't need the shaft speed to be reduced to get good efficiency like an engine does.
In fact the opposite applies, and running high rpm and partial torque, is desirable.
This map shows what I'm referring to, note that it includes the power electronics drive as well, it's showing the efficiency from battery to wheel.
Peak torque is available from zero rpm, giving fantastic acceleration from standstill at decent efficiency, and then the peak efficiency occurs at the high rpm, low torque setting exactly where you want to cruise at.
Clearly the actual efficiency numbers are world's apart, but the problem the engine has is that its peak efficiency sits at low rpm and high torque.
Which is an impossible loadpoint to reach when cruising, simply because the engine is oversized to produce the torque needed for acceleration, and it actually runs more efficiently during acceleration than cruise.
Hard acceleration in a passenger car on a typical drive cycle represents a minuscule amount of time, making the efficiency during acceleration somewhat irrelevant, which again plays to the strengths of the electric motor.
Let's not ignore that a motor can also decelerate the car and recover most of the kinetic energy, whilst an engine can't.
Engines are great for motor racing though!
Can you imagine if we had gone the EV route without gearboxes to start with and suddenly someone says an ICE sounds better, is lighter and despite being catastrophically inneficient thermally, remains an option.
But then it requires a totally different transmission where a box full of various size cogs is required as well as a new driver hand operated linkage that with the help of a clutch that is foot operated through an additional pedal will allow the shift from one cog to the other depending on rpm, road speed, load etc ..
I am not convinced what the reaction would be. I would love to see the comments in a dystopian parralel forum.
Now imagine the comments about a diesel version lol.
But then it requires a totally different transmission where a box full of various size cogs is required as well as a new driver hand operated linkage that with the help of a clutch that is foot operated through an additional pedal will allow the shift from one cog to the other depending on rpm, road speed, load etc ..
I am not convinced what the reaction would be. I would love to see the comments in a dystopian parralel forum.
Now imagine the comments about a diesel version lol.
TheRainMaker said:
My comment was purely on your "laugh-out-loud fun" statement. While it is "nippy", and I love the car, it's not really that fast, to be honest.
On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
It's the throttle response rather than the speed in my experience. Instant. And I have had plenty of powerful ICE, but nothing that responds as quick. But you are right, it's nippy rather than fast. Still embarrass nearly everything out there to 30 though - if that is your thing...On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
Discombobulate said:
TheRainMaker said:
My comment was purely on your "laugh-out-loud fun" statement. While it is "nippy", and I love the car, it's not really that fast, to be honest.
On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
It's the throttle response rather than the speed in my experience. Instant. And I have had plenty of powerful ICE, but nothing that responds as quick. But you are right, it's nippy rather than fast. Still embarrass nearly everything out there to 30 though - if that is your thing...On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
loudlashadjuster said:
NDA said:
Janluke said:
Many thanks
Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)
Yes, slower charging (ie not 'supercharging') is better for ultimate battery life - however, most owners probably wouldn't notice much difference in degradation over 4 or 5 years. As previously mentioned, it's normally to charged to 80%.Another couple of questions if I may
1) Am I right in thinking slower charging is better for battery life overall?
2) Is it ok to top up every day or should you wait until empty or nearly empty(ref battery health/life)
EV powering is different to ICE. With petrol you tend to drive to empty and then fill to full. With an EV you generally plug it in when you get home and forget about it until you next need the car. You never run it close to empty (which doesn't do the battery too much good either as it happens). So yes, top up every day. Also charging from, say, 5% to 100% would take a very long time... most charges I do are probably 40% to 80% in my 12,000 mile year.
Batteries should last for 1,500 cycles as they have pretty sophisticated battery management tech. Their theoretical life would therefore be around 500,000 miles. I'd be happy with 150,000.
Sure, sometime we get caught out and need to charge at work, borrow a cable, or ask the barman if we can leave it behind the bar for an hour etc., but in general it works fine.
And for the overwhelming number of people they won’t *need* to charge a car overnight, every night.
Wouldn’t it be better if our phones lasted a week on a charge like a Nokia 2110? Of course, but the performance/size/longevity compromise is one we’ve come to accept, at least until some fancy new chemistry comes along and gives us a month of phone battery life and 2,000 mile range in our super lightweight EVs
Edited by loudlashadjuster on Saturday 11th May 06:54
Tindersticks said:
riskyj said:
Some of the comments on that video…not sure if people are taking the piss or genuinely that thick.
He sure knows his audience nickfrog said:
Can you imagine if we had gone the EV route without gearboxes to start with and suddenly someone says an ICE sounds better, is lighter and despite being catastrophically inneficient thermally, remains an option.
But then it requires a totally different transmission where a box full of various size cogs is required as well as a new driver hand operated linkage that with the help of a clutch that is foot operated through an additional pedal will allow the shift from one cog to the other depending on rpm, road speed, load etc ..
I am not convinced what the reaction would be. I would love to see the comments in a dystopian parralel forum.
Now imagine the comments about a diesel version lol.
But then it requires a totally different transmission where a box full of various size cogs is required as well as a new driver hand operated linkage that with the help of a clutch that is foot operated through an additional pedal will allow the shift from one cog to the other depending on rpm, road speed, load etc ..
I am not convinced what the reaction would be. I would love to see the comments in a dystopian parralel forum.
Now imagine the comments about a diesel version lol.
Your do know that EVs were about over a century ago?
They were smoother, quiet, nice to drive, lower maintenance, didn't stink etc etc.
ICE won out.
Unreal said:
Discombobulate said:
TheRainMaker said:
My comment was purely on your "laugh-out-loud fun" statement. While it is "nippy", and I love the car, it's not really that fast, to be honest.
On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
It's the throttle response rather than the speed in my experience. Instant. And I have had plenty of powerful ICE, but nothing that responds as quick. But you are right, it's nippy rather than fast. Still embarrass nearly everything out there to 30 though - if that is your thing...On your last point, my last ICE auto had 500+ bhp, which was pretty quick whatever gear it was in
Like I said, it depends on what you are used to. If you compare an i3s with a 1.4 auto, I can see why you think that is better.
GT9 said:
I think it's more inherent than that.
We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.
CVT solves that issue but it was never popular because shock horror to drive a car like that is incredibly dull. A CVT makes an ICE perform exactly the same as an EV in that regard as you are always in the peak power band all the time. We think of gearboxes as a 'delight to use', etc.
From an engineering perspective they are a necessary evil because the engine doesn't have enough torque over a wide enough speed range to accelerate the car, whilst then wanting to run at close to peak torque and low rpm to get best efficiency during cruise.
Simplistically, an engine is not the right tool for a passenger car drive cycle, whereas an electric motor inherently is.
Electric cars don't have full power on tap btw, they have full torque on tap.
The power is metered out linearly with road speed until the speed is high enough for full power to be usefully deployed to accelerate the car and overcome drag.
Having an infinite gearbox means you can tune for economy or power.
https://youtu.be/x3UpBKXMRto?si=qqmiL2bO7F31T6ve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWrDKGoYJo&t=...
It is a shame it got banned in F1 as it was obviously faster and if it was developed more over the past 30 years they would have perfected the technology.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Saturday 11th May 11:31
This sort of thing seems more common. Wondering if it's because of the dial selector for Fwd/Rev. Its possible if you're a bit impatient for it not to reverse direction so when you step on it it carries on in the same direction.
I've done it myself but luckily I'm not completely inept so I just brake and do it properly.
Can see how some people panic and stand on the go pedal though.
I've done it myself but luckily I'm not completely inept so I just brake and do it properly.
Can see how some people panic and stand on the go pedal though.
Fastdruid said:
riskyj said:
"Screen glitchy". That alone in a Tesla would put me off given how much they rely on them.
If I hadn't recently bought one I'd be tempted to take a punt on that.
ChocolateFrog said:
This sort of thing seems more common. Wondering if it's because of the dial selector for Fwd/Rev. Its possible if you're a bit impatient for it not to reverse direction so when you step on it it carries on in the same direction.
I've done it myself but luckily I'm not completely inept so I just brake and do it properly.
Must admit, I’ve nearly been caught out a few times with the Polestar. Over the last ten years, I’ve had Merc with a stalk selector, two Jags with rotary selectors, and a Tesla with stalk selector. I've done it myself but luckily I'm not completely inept so I just brake and do it properly.
The Polestar has a ‘traditional’ auto style shifter but to me it’s completely counter intuitive to pull it backwards to go forwards and push it forwards to go backwards. Had a few amusing three point turns as a result.
Janluke said:
Understood, the phone comparison works well. Part of the potential advantage to me personally would be waking up each day with a full "tank" . I have an ebike capable of approx 60 miles(depends on temp, terrain and my effort) but tend to top it off after each ride whether its 10 or 40 miles. Been doing that for over 10 years and the battery seems fine(92% health) but obviously EV batteries are a little more complicated and expensive
You’re right; BEV battery packs are a lot more complicated and expensive, but then they also have a lot more competent battery management systems, plus active heating/cooling to minimise any impacts to long-term battery health.Early ones, like the first Leaf, didn’t have that so have suffered quite a bit, but todays cells, particularly LFP, with modern charge/discharge management are a world away and there’s strong evidence that the battery packs and motors will outlast much of the rest of the car in a way that ICE motors l/gearboxes rarely managed.
And even at the point where they don’t meet the grade for propulsion use they still have genuine utility as being repurposed as home storage, which is an industry that will burgeon in the coming years.
All depends what you're used too, pulling back for D and pushing forwards to R is intuitive for me but I'm used to it, but as an example BMW changed the direction of the zoom function on the idrive controller on idrive7 and even after 2 years I still sometimes zoom out when I want to zoom in. (although in my defence I don't use the function that often and was used to using the the previous functionality for 13 years).
I was at my friends used car showroom the other day and I sat in a Model 3 I just kept saying to myself don't press the throttle as you've no idea if the car is on or not.
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