EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
GT9 said:
survivalist said:
Pretty standard for any trip I’ve ever had in France, or anywhere north of Manchester.
More importantly, it’s the roof box and the bikes that make an EV a poor option.
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
That’s why I own one for local trips, but why wouldn’t entertain one as an only vehicle. They’re just not there yet.
Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
Clearly a car will be more efficient at 60-70mph compared to 90mph. My car hovers around 26mpg in general use (short trips and A-road driving) but improves when on a long road trip because it’s sitting at a constant (albeit higher) speed.
An EV would likely be more efficient, even at a higher speed and having ruined its aerodynamics by strapping stuff to it, but it’s less convenient because of having to frequently recharge.
I’d be surprised if anyone thought they had to drive at 90mph to save fuel, although in some ways it would be nice as people might drive a bit faster when on the motorway. 90mph does seem a reasonable cruising speed on parts of the continent though and it certainly helps get through the miles on a long journey.
survivalist said:
My car hovers around 26mpg in general use (short trips and A-road driving) but improves when on a long road trip because it’s sitting at a constant (albeit higher) speed.
I was aware you were referring to the difference between urban and extra urban consumption, was using your 90 mph 'improvement' statement to make the point that all cars suffer from drag. 
We just need to wait until we can get a bit more energy (and faster) into an EV and the job's a good un.
A bit less weight wouldn't go amiss either...
survivalist said:
It’s all just opinions, ultimately.
Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
That's generally just about using the right tool for the job though. Where the use case fits the benefit of never having to recharge away from home then the EV is by far the better tool. The moment one's usage means having to contemplate recharging away from home then a lot more thought has to go into it and what also comes into play is a large amount of subjective and personal choice. I absolutely wouldn't waste a single second of my life fannying about plotting nor using chargers on a run through Europe. That doesn't mean it can't be done or that others wouldn't receive extreme joy from such an experience but just that I would generally think that they were probably skint so didn't have a second car or weird. Ours doesn’t fall short, it was purchased on the basis that it would always be charged at home and likely never see a long journey.
The areas where longer range EVs fell short were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment.
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV rsnge drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
EVs are a slam dunk for the chore pottering that comprises the bulk of people's day to day use in the U.K. It's just a cost issue for those with home charging and a non issue for those who don't as they very obviously aren't part of this first phase of EV adoption (it's going to be at least a decade before they get their chance but then it appears that this is what they want so there really is no issue).
A large amount of people naturally struggle to see solutions until they are presented to them by other people and it is a very British thing to see everything as a problem and to start panicking, even about things which are clearly not relevant to them but others are natural innovators and would look at the possible issue of gaining hugely from switching to EV for 90% of their usage needs but if that remaining 10% were too much of an inconvenience to use an EV they'd just find a simple solution. Hiring a car or joining a car club or forming a syndicate of friends to run a generic ICE vehicle between a group being such an obvious workaround.
A huge amount of the 'EVs can't work' rhetoric is just the panicking from the people who can't naturally see solutions as well as those who don't want to see solutions.
740EVTORQUES said:
Just so I understand this, the efficiency of a petrol car is better at 60mph than at 90mph and the amount of energy needed to overcome drag is. Early three times greater at the higher speed? The OP doesn’t realise this though because it is being masked by the pitiful inefficiency of his ICE car in other ways (mainly thermal waste)?
And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
Aware of the efficiency, or lack thereof. Also didn’t reference cost, although the ability to cover a greater distance in a day can provide cost savings - the first time we did a long European journey we stopped half way and stayed in a hotel, which represented a significant cost compared to spending a little more on fuel.And all of this is masked because he can refuel quickly.
I wonder what he will say when he realises that he can also refuel an EV quickly and at reasonable cost (€0.50/ kWh vs €1.90/ litre for petrol), with most French service stations having banks of rapid chargers?
(That’s around €.12/ mile for electric vs €0.18/ mile for petrol comparing a 50mpg car with a 4 mile/ kWh one)
I’m also aware of the charging infrastructure. This time of year it’s pretty empty, less so during the school/summer holidays and while some EVs can now charger very quickly it’s not universal. Every ICE car I’ve owned or driven has been able to ‘fast charge’.
Like is said, happy to use ours for local trips, but for now I’ll be sticking with ICE for the longer journeys.
PBCD said:
survivalist said:
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
survivalist also said:
The areas where longer range EVs fell short (for us) were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
The bits I have highlighted in bold are surely the very definition of a 'narrow use case'?! On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
PBCD said:
survivalist said:
EVs are efficient and cost effective, but for a narrow use case.
survivalist also said:
The areas where longer range EVs fell short (for us) were mainly range and dynamic enjoyment
On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
The bits I have highlighted in bold are surely the very definition of a 'narrow use case'?! On longer journeys we usually have a roof box and some bikes on the back p. - EV range drops like a stone.
Half of those long journeys are in Europe and faster running speeds are common. In a 3L petrol my average MPG improves on a 90mph run through France.
GT9 said:
EVs are still efficient at motorway speeds, it's the much higher external energy per mile consumption that kills the range.
Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
It's not about fuel cost though. It is for some, some appear utterly obsessed about spending £40k+ on a car and then obsessing endlessly about mpg but we know very clearly from just looking at the U.K. fleet of cars that mpg/economy isn't actually a core criteria within quite a large basic band. Most consumers are not focussing predominantly on ultimate efficiency but on other factors. Which your 335i is masking.
At 90 mph, whilst you are probably doing the engine a favour by pushing the torque and rpm closer to where it wants to run for maximum efficiency, you are also increasing the power demand non-linearly and that will have a significantly greater effect than marginally increasing the engine's efficiency.
You might think you are getting the best fuel consumption at 90 mph, it will however be be lower at 60-70 mph.
I'm going to suggest that you wouldn't actually cruise at those speeds out of choice, and you've convinced yourself you are saving fuel using man maths.
Fortunately, I already have a useful spreadsheet that I can enter vehicle details into.
Here are the power and energy demands for a constant speed cruise in your car.
The problem with EVs for long journeys isn't that it can't be done or that it's not potentially cheaper but that it can be less convenient, less enjoyable, more stressful and remove freedom of choice.
This matters less when it is a routine dull long distance journey where once a route is defined once then that's that, plus over time all the myriad alternative options are learned but it's really very relevant for the less regular long distance drives.
EVs have attracted some very odd people who are obsessive about penny shaving after commuting to an enormous monthly financing spend but most people just want to not plan and not be beholden to a particular route, not have speed dictated by the object you've chosen for the task etc. There are already so many external factors that are influencing that logically one would select a vehicle that would add to that.
Continental driving for example is still 80-90mph and you don't want to be tied to a fixed route but free to just go off where you want, whenever you want. EVs add a complexity to that which is freedom robbing and stress adding.
The reality is that the moment one's car starts dictating terms then it's game over, you've bought the wrong tool for the job and kicked yourself in the nuts.
Can you use an EV to get to the South of France? Absolutely. Will it be cheaper and more efficient to do so? Quite possibly. Is it the right tool for the job? Absolutely not. You'd have to be an actuary or the world's fullest pensioner to opt to use a tool that dictates terms, governs your speed, governs your route, governs your accommodation. Or a pervert. One of those deviants that pay money to be ordered about and controlled. Maybe for some their EV is a budget dominatrix?
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
GT9 said:
Call it irrational if you like, I'm fine with petrol cars for that purpose DA, but not diesel.
In my view, the time is upon us now to push diesel back where it belongs, in a boat or a truck.
Ultimately we only need, say, 80% of cars to switch anyway. There's no real harm to be done by a handful of ICE remaining or being used where for those individuals they remain a better choice. In my view, the time is upon us now to push diesel back where it belongs, in a boat or a truck.
Diesel is a weird one. On the one hand it is by far the best fuel at present for workers on a budget, with no home charging but having to cover large distances, so it's important for social and economic mobility that it remains on sale. Then sitting on the other side is the insanity of its use in premium vehicles like SUVs where the users could easily afford to use petrol if they hadn't binned their cash on a car that is stretching the monthly budget. But it is those big, more premium cars which are most easily and beneficially switched to EV but could possibly do with a bit of a speed-up. Maybe even a ban of anything that's not petrol V8, this leaving that environment the sole preserve of those who like cars.
Maybe I'm missing something here but does anyone actually plan a road trip in advance in an EV rather than just letting the car do it? My car as well as others I tried knows how efficient a particular route is, where is best to charge close to that route and will dynamically adjust that if you ask it to make a detour. You can even choose from various options depending on preferred charging network etc and the car will also automatically adjust the range if it knows you are towing.
I wouldn't want to take an old leaf on a road trip but for anything from the last few years it is pretty much stress free when it comes to route planning.
I wouldn't want to take an old leaf on a road trip but for anything from the last few years it is pretty much stress free when it comes to route planning.
DonkeyApple said:
It's not about fuel cost though. It is for some, some appear utterly obsessed about spending £40k+ on a car and then obsessing endlessly about mpg but we know very clearly from just looking at the U.K. fleet of cars that mpg/economy isn't actually a core criteria within quite a large basic band. Most consumers are not focussing predominantly on ultimate efficiency but on other factors.
The problem with EVs for long journeys isn't that it can't be done or that it's not potentially cheaper but that it can be less convenient, less enjoyable, more stressful and remove freedom of choice.
This matters less when it is a routine dull long distance journey where once a route is defined once then that's that, plus over time all the myriad alternative options are learned but it's really very relevant for the less regular long distance drives.
EVs have attracted some very odd people who are obsessive about penny shaving after commuting to an enormous monthly financing spend but most people just want to not plan and not be beholden to a particular route, not have speed dictated by the object you've chosen for the task etc. There are already so many external factors that are influencing that logically one would select a vehicle that would add to that.
Continental driving for example is still 80-90mph and you don't want to be tied to a fixed route but free to just go off where you want, whenever you want. EVs add a complexity to that which is freedom robbing and stress adding.
The reality is that the moment one's car starts dictating terms then it's game over, you've bought the wrong tool for the job and kicked yourself in the nuts.
Can you use an EV to get to the South of France? Absolutely. Will it be cheaper and more efficient to do so? Quite possibly. Is it the right tool for the job? Absolutely not. You'd have to be an actuary or the world's fullest pensioner to opt to use a tool that dictates terms, governs your speed, governs your route, governs your accommodation. Or a pervert. One of those deviants that pay money to be ordered about and controlled. Maybe for some their EV is a budget dominatrix?
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
Good post. Evs appeal to a particular type - people that like tech and like detail, plans and order. I suspect many are also a bit OCD. They like tidiness, order and cleanliness, they have the latest telly/camera/bike. They are never unconventional and always law abiding. They watch the finances, even if they're loaded.The problem with EVs for long journeys isn't that it can't be done or that it's not potentially cheaper but that it can be less convenient, less enjoyable, more stressful and remove freedom of choice.
This matters less when it is a routine dull long distance journey where once a route is defined once then that's that, plus over time all the myriad alternative options are learned but it's really very relevant for the less regular long distance drives.
EVs have attracted some very odd people who are obsessive about penny shaving after commuting to an enormous monthly financing spend but most people just want to not plan and not be beholden to a particular route, not have speed dictated by the object you've chosen for the task etc. There are already so many external factors that are influencing that logically one would select a vehicle that would add to that.
Continental driving for example is still 80-90mph and you don't want to be tied to a fixed route but free to just go off where you want, whenever you want. EVs add a complexity to that which is freedom robbing and stress adding.
The reality is that the moment one's car starts dictating terms then it's game over, you've bought the wrong tool for the job and kicked yourself in the nuts.
Can you use an EV to get to the South of France? Absolutely. Will it be cheaper and more efficient to do so? Quite possibly. Is it the right tool for the job? Absolutely not. You'd have to be an actuary or the world's fullest pensioner to opt to use a tool that dictates terms, governs your speed, governs your route, governs your accommodation. Or a pervert. One of those deviants that pay money to be ordered about and controlled. Maybe for some their EV is a budget dominatrix?
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
I know many people like that and I respect them as being different. However, the other general characteristic they possess is that they are utterly perplexed and regularly frustrated by people who aren't like them.
Picking up on your point about a foreign trip. I'm going to drive through France in the next couple of months. I may extend the trip to Spain. Once I have booked the ferry crossings i won't really do much more planning before I leave. I'll decide on the car I use about a week before to ensure it can get a thorough checkover and I'll book some accommodation.
I'll pack a few clothes the day before leaving and buy stuff on the trip. Route will be like a spine I might take but I could divert depending on my mood. I won't even think about where I will buy fuel or when I might stop for a break.
This will make some of my friends and family shudder but I won't be remotely stressed by it and it will all work out fine.
I also have a place in Mallorca. I never drive more than 20 km or so over there and it's unoccupied for months at a time. On the surface, ideal for an EV. In fact there is a battered Fiat 500 in the garage on a trickle charger. I see no point in dropping £10K to £15K on a used EV to save a grand in fuel costs for me and anyone I let use the place.
The point of all this is to say yet again something that could be a sticky: at this moment, EVs are suitable for some people in some circumstances.
DonkeyApple said:
Continental driving for example is still 80-90mph and you don't want to be tied to a fixed route but free to just go off where you want, whenever you want. EVs add a complexity to that which is freedom robbing and stress adding.
The reality is that the moment one's car starts dictating terms then it's game over, you've bought the wrong tool for the job and kicked yourself in the nuts.
Can you use an EV to get to the South of France? Absolutely. Will it be cheaper and more efficient to do so? Quite possibly. Is it the right tool for the job? Absolutely not. You'd have to be an actuary or the world's fullest pensioner to opt to use a tool that dictates terms, governs your speed, governs your route, governs your accommodation. Or a pervert. One of those deviants that pay money to be ordered about and controlled. Maybe for some their EV is a budget dominatrix?
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
100%. I’ve done yerp in a 100kw Tesla three times. Calais to Algarve twice, Santander to Algarve once. And back. Deviant sums it up. It’s utter sThe reality is that the moment one's car starts dictating terms then it's game over, you've bought the wrong tool for the job and kicked yourself in the nuts.
Can you use an EV to get to the South of France? Absolutely. Will it be cheaper and more efficient to do so? Quite possibly. Is it the right tool for the job? Absolutely not. You'd have to be an actuary or the world's fullest pensioner to opt to use a tool that dictates terms, governs your speed, governs your route, governs your accommodation. Or a pervert. One of those deviants that pay money to be ordered about and controlled. Maybe for some their EV is a budget dominatrix?
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
t. Self inflicted pain. Your route is preplanned, stops are preplanned, speed is preplanned and you’re screwed if you go faster, diversions or perversions or any spontaneity are incredibly difficult and although you get used to the range panic it’s not enjoyable. Tying a number of bladders, human and canine, to where Elon scrawled SC on a map is an absolute PITA. EV for that sort of thing isn’t a thing just yet. Local stuff yes it works great. Doing the same long trip by petrol now is an absolute dream. Even France. Unreal said:
Good post. Evs appeal to a particular type - people that like tech and like detail, plans and order. I suspect many are also a bit OCD. They like tidiness, order and cleanliness, they have the latest telly/camera/bike. They are never unconventional and always law abiding. They watch the finances, even if they're loaded.
Just laughing at this in the context of a Tesla owner I know. Erm, nope.MightyBadger said:
DonkeyApple said:
Meanwhile, EVs for local stuff massively win for the same reason, they're the more convenient and simpler tool for the task at hand.
Not at all, they are 'on par' with ICE. An even match. Maracus said:
John87 said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but does anyone actually plan a road trip in advance in an EV rather than just letting the car do it?
I just let the car do it. Never had an issue in 4+ years, even to Italy and France.Then I’d look at a map and ensure I had a backup in mind.
Mr E said:
Maracus said:
John87 said:
Maybe I'm missing something here but does anyone actually plan a road trip in advance in an EV rather than just letting the car do it?
I just let the car do it. Never had an issue in 4+ years, even to Italy and France.Then I’d look at a map and ensure I had a backup in mind.
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