Discussion
I-am-the-reverend said:
I always liked BMW's to drive and have had quite a few.
But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
Does that really go for all of the German manufacturers? They all seem to have some form of engineering faux pas that causes issues.But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
Court_S said:
Does that really go for all of the German manufacturers? They all seem to have some form of engineering faux pas that causes issues.
I would say yes.My pet hate is VAG - they seem to go out of their way to make something stupidly complex, unreliable and a b
d to work on. They are rarely anything special to drive - the exceptions being the later Golf GTi's and the 2010 Audi A5 Coupe 3.0TDI Quattro we had - now that was a nice thing. Bought it cheap with the usual timing chain noise, fixed it and used it for a year. Anything TFSI is almost universally crap though. Court_S said:
I-am-the-reverend said:
I always liked BMW's to drive and have had quite a few.
But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
Does that really go for all of the German manufacturers? They all seem to have some form of engineering faux pas that causes issues.But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
Pommy said:
I would say no, BMW seem to suffer across their entire engine range for perhaps 20 years of a variety of issues. Most other manufacturers seem to have 1 or 2.specific engines that suffer from maladies, not the whole damn range.
BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
N52 - brilliant engine.BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
Issues? Water pump and oil leaks on rocker cover, oil filter housing and sump? None of which are major.
My old 130i (N52) was 12 years old when I sold it at 170k miles - I had to do the oil filter housing gasket and chose to do the water pump at 100k as a precaution. No other issues (owned from 50k miles).
B58 has problems with oil filter falling apart - more significant than the above.
swanny71 said:
N52 - brilliant engine.
Issues? Water pump and oil leaks on rocker cover, oil filter housing and sump? None of which are major.
My old 130i (N52) was 12 years old when I sold it at 170k miles - I had to do the oil filter housing gasket and chose to do the water pump at 100k as a precaution. No other issues (owned from 50k miles).
B58 has problems with oil filter falling apart - more significant than the above.
The N52 is a great engine. My wife’s 330i is coming up to 168k now.Issues? Water pump and oil leaks on rocker cover, oil filter housing and sump? None of which are major.
My old 130i (N52) was 12 years old when I sold it at 170k miles - I had to do the oil filter housing gasket and chose to do the water pump at 100k as a precaution. No other issues (owned from 50k miles).
B58 has problems with oil filter falling apart - more significant than the above.
It’s amazing that BMW’s are still on the road….
Pommy said:
I would say no, BMW seem to suffer across their entire engine range for perhaps 20 years of a variety of issues. Most other manufacturers seem to have 1 or 2.specific engines that suffer from maladies, not the whole damn range.
BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
I think that’s a pretty extreme view; RS cars are just as capable of chucking up bills just as much an M car. The bills my uncles C6 RS6 chucked up were horrific in a short space of time….ironically the E90 M3 which he had after was good as gold.BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
The bearing issues seem much more restricted to the M engines which as largely down to owners driving unsympathetically and ragging cars before the oil is properly warmed up.
All of the German manufacturers seem to suffer with issues, some of which are pretty fundamental at times.
I used to drive many cars for work, so I regularly jumped into anything from Volvo's, Insignia's, Mondeo's, Golf's, Passat's, A4's, etc. I'm on my 4th BMW (340i) and struggle to think what I'd replace mine with that wasn't a BMW. They don't just drive better than the other cars in their class, they're way better. Don't get me wrong, for special cars, sports cars, etc. then I'm sure I'd consider a broader range of makes but if like me, you want a standard compact family saloon for daily duties, the 3 series is the default choice and for good reason IMO.
Pommy said:
Court_S said:
I-am-the-reverend said:
I always liked BMW's to drive and have had quite a few.
But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
Does that really go for all of the German manufacturers? They all seem to have some form of engineering faux pas that causes issues.But......
Some of the design and build quality issues are just ridiculous. I was a self employed mechanic for years and watched BMW make the same mistakes again and again. Plastic timing chain guides are one example. They were crap 20 years ago and they still are.
After 20 years plus, they still can't make an engine oil tight. That goes for all German makes to be fair, yet the Japanese seemingly can.
I still have mates in the trade, a few with Sytner group so we laugh about all the latest dramas. Water pumps and horns are the common failure points on current models along with 330e differentials. The latest four cyl petrol has a problem where a plastic coolant pipe shears and dumps all the coolant, Ford Ecoboost style and with similar catastrophic results. 8 Series window regulators failing - that's not a cheap car (well, not cheap to buy).
They seem to be a nice car but with a veneer of quality over something not overly well engineered. A pity as they used to be pretty good.
BMW V8s that leak. M cars that implode or have constant reliability issues. 6 cylinder engines with bearing issues. 4 cylinder engine that have catastrophic failure. Turbo 6s that have a litany of cooling and turbo issues.
Name any desirable BMW/engine since the late 90s and it's got inherent, renowned issues that arise after about 5 years.
The only one that seems to be doing ok is the recent B58.
Once they'd got away from the early nikasil issues; the alusil was much better
Yes they're prone to cooling system issues; but they're all consumables anyway and need to be serviced/maintained like the rest of the engine/car
They do leak oil; but from gaskets that go dry & brittle with age, as all gaskets do!
Other than that; massively reliable and bulletproof
Okay.
Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And?
Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going.
I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And?
Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going. I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
I-am-the-reverend said:
Okay.
Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And? Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going.
I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
I've owned and run plenty of Honda engines (B16s to K24s and a few other variations); they're not infallible and they do like to leak as well...Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And?
Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going. I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
But agree; the cars you see the most of EVERYWHERE are predominantly Japanese...
I-am-the-reverend said:
Okay.
Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And? Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going.
I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
If I ever move to “any third world country” or Asia, South America, Haiti, Thailand or the Dominican Republic (and need to buy an old sLook at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And?
Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going. I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
tter) I’ll carefully consider your recommendations.Meanwhile, back in the real world, I’ll stick to what I know and like.
I-am-the-reverend said:
Okay.
Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And? Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going.
I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
On the drive currently I have a 15 year old 1 Series and a 15 year old Honda Civic - the Civic is on 139k miles, the 1 Series 173k. Granted I've only had the Civic for 2 years so can't speal to how it was treated before I had it, but hopefully should still give me some insight on the Honda vs BMW thing. Look at a 20 year old Honda and it will likely be bone dry. Ditto Toyota.
170'000 miles? And?
Go to any third world country and you will find ten year old Camrys, Hyundais with a lot more than that on the clock. First engine, still going. I've travelled across Asia, South America, Haiti etc. The one thing you don't see is German cars apart from the occasional trophy Merc. They just aren't good enough. The most common car in Thailand is the Corolla, in the Dominican Republic and Haiti the Hyundai Sonata.
VW? Mercedes? BMW? Forget it.
Other than the engine and transmission (which I'd call a draw considering their respective appetites for oil - yes the Honda does use a bit as well) the BMW feels as entirely better engineered as you would expect given the difference in original purchase price. In the 2 years in the Honda I've had to fix a lot of the front suspension (more could use attention), the handbrake lever which snapped off, the front passenger door which wouldn't open from the outside and the headlights which were too foggy to get through an MOT.
Still to fix if I can be bothered are the leaking rear window which gets the contents of the boot wet and causes the car to steam up the second you get in it (temporary fix there of a dehumidifier bag in the boot), the air conditioning which is just as broken as it is on every other Mk8 Civic, the rear passenger door which doesn't open from the inside and the garbeled pixels on the radio. It remains to be seen if I fix those before rust kills the entire car.
At the same time in the BMW outside of the usual age related maintenance, I've had to do a passenger door lock and replace the head unit.
Don't get me wrong I do like the Honda, mostly thanks to the engine and the fact it's a tardis in the back for carrying stuff, but it's also really easy to see where the extra purchase price on the BMW goes.
I also recall from trips to Vietnam and Thailand seeing quite a few BMWs and Mercs driving around - although looking at the respective wages in each country compared to Europe, the fact that German cars are less common is somewhat less surprising.
Interesting.
Honda Civics:
I've had to replace door mirrors when the power folding mechanisms break. Corrosion in the spare wheel well and the odd snapped driveshaft, seized rear calipers. 2.2 diesels love a clutch. This is the 'spaceship' model front around 2006 to 2012 or so.
1 Series: Timing chains, injectors, oil pick up pipes, flywheels, differentials, driveshaft ABS trigger rings, ABS pumps, various Vanos and Valvetronic faults, rear wiper motors, screen washer pumps, diesel high pressure fuel pumps.
I don't like the Civic much as a car though. Definitely a tool for a job and not much else.
Honda Civics:
I've had to replace door mirrors when the power folding mechanisms break. Corrosion in the spare wheel well and the odd snapped driveshaft, seized rear calipers. 2.2 diesels love a clutch. This is the 'spaceship' model front around 2006 to 2012 or so.
1 Series: Timing chains, injectors, oil pick up pipes, flywheels, differentials, driveshaft ABS trigger rings, ABS pumps, various Vanos and Valvetronic faults, rear wiper motors, screen washer pumps, diesel high pressure fuel pumps.
I don't like the Civic much as a car though. Definitely a tool for a job and not much else.
BMW, MERCEDES, and AUDI are all now just brands.
They are trading on a past where they they used to make cars that were better than most.
Now they are just another mainstream manufacturer with a few halo models.
But people will always want the badge and are willing to pay over the odds for it.
They are trading on a past where they they used to make cars that were better than most.
Now they are just another mainstream manufacturer with a few halo models.
But people will always want the badge and are willing to pay over the odds for it.
I-am-the-reverend said:
Interesting.
Honda Civics:
I've had to replace door mirrors when the power folding mechanisms break. Corrosion in the spare wheel well and the odd snapped driveshaft, seized rear calipers. 2.2 diesels love a clutch. This is the 'spaceship' model front around 2006 to 2012 or so.
1 Series: Timing chains, injectors, oil pick up pipes, flywheels, differentials, driveshaft ABS trigger rings, ABS pumps, various Vanos and Valvetronic faults, rear wiper motors, screen washer pumps, diesel high pressure fuel pumps.
I don't like the Civic much as a car though. Definitely a tool for a job and not much else.
Ah you are correct - I forgot about the 1 Series appetite for an ABS Sensor - can I blame Bosch for that? Honda Civics:
I've had to replace door mirrors when the power folding mechanisms break. Corrosion in the spare wheel well and the odd snapped driveshaft, seized rear calipers. 2.2 diesels love a clutch. This is the 'spaceship' model front around 2006 to 2012 or so.
1 Series: Timing chains, injectors, oil pick up pipes, flywheels, differentials, driveshaft ABS trigger rings, ABS pumps, various Vanos and Valvetronic faults, rear wiper motors, screen washer pumps, diesel high pressure fuel pumps.
I don't like the Civic much as a car though. Definitely a tool for a job and not much else.
I haven't had any of the other issues mentioned though as I made a point of avoiding anything with 4 cylinders in it and gone with an N52, which apart from it's love of an oil leak is pretty solid.
We've got the spaceship Civic as well and I do like the engine. it's the 1.8 VTEC and whilst it sounds fairly dull in normal use (like a rainy afternoon in Swindon as James May described it) it does get fruitier if you poke it with a big stick - has a half decent turn of speed as well.
It has got under my skin a bit, and the engine/transmission are great to use, I just don't find the bits attached to it as well put together as the BMW.
I really like their driving dynamics, however am not keen on anything post pre-LCI E90s.
Not a fan of M cars either as like all BMWs, they aren't than focused/fun and need modifying. From a bang per buck perspective, I think they are quite poor.
Get a good (proper) one and they are ace. But they made plenty of stinkers too so you need to be wary.
The badge alone does not guarantee driving fun. Or reliability.
Not a fan of M cars either as like all BMWs, they aren't than focused/fun and need modifying. From a bang per buck perspective, I think they are quite poor.
Get a good (proper) one and they are ace. But they made plenty of stinkers too so you need to be wary.
The badge alone does not guarantee driving fun. Or reliability.
911Spanker said:
I really like their driving dynamics, however am not keen on anything post pre-LCI E90s.
I always liked the 2006 E90 330d we had. Weirdly I didn't like the 2006 E90 330i that I had after it as much though. The 330d was much more playful lower down the revs, and the extra torque over the 330i suited it I thought. Plus the extra torque in the 330d did a better job of helping to hide the kerbweight of the car a bit for me as well. BMW are the only every day cars that I get in and feel there is still a bit of consideration during the design process on how the thing drives, BMWs tend to just about be on the right side of enjoyable still.
From the 328i E36 touring, through the E39s, E91s and E61s they have all been great, and they have that reassuring familiarity too, little things like the fonts used on the switchgear and the tachos, the little temp adjuster so you can adjust the temperature of the air blowing in your face separate to the temp of the cabin (genius), and just the layout of the buttons, combine that with the materials used (certainly on 5 series) these are simple things that you get used to and when you jump in something else you miss.
Then you have the way it feels as you push on round some sweeping bends, it sort of pivots on the rear axle and has this wonderful flow that you simply don't get with Mercedes, let alone Audis.
I have tried the competition many times over the years, but always end up back with a BMW touring on the driveway. I wouldn't even say I need the biggest engine or fastest car, that is missing the point, for me they are the brand I go to for a daily, they do every thing well, not saying they do everything best, just that the sum of all their parts means they are the best all rounder.
I was going to say if it was my only car, if I didn't have a 911, I might not choose BMW, but thinking about as I type it out, of course I would. I would probably downsize from our 5 series touring and get an M340i touring, or if funds allowed a B3 touring, and a roof box. I have not tried the M3 touring and wouldn't want and over damped car as my every day car, but it could be perfect?
So yeah I am a BMW fan, but that doesn't mean I would want any BMW and there is a big difference there.
From the 328i E36 touring, through the E39s, E91s and E61s they have all been great, and they have that reassuring familiarity too, little things like the fonts used on the switchgear and the tachos, the little temp adjuster so you can adjust the temperature of the air blowing in your face separate to the temp of the cabin (genius), and just the layout of the buttons, combine that with the materials used (certainly on 5 series) these are simple things that you get used to and when you jump in something else you miss.
Then you have the way it feels as you push on round some sweeping bends, it sort of pivots on the rear axle and has this wonderful flow that you simply don't get with Mercedes, let alone Audis.
I have tried the competition many times over the years, but always end up back with a BMW touring on the driveway. I wouldn't even say I need the biggest engine or fastest car, that is missing the point, for me they are the brand I go to for a daily, they do every thing well, not saying they do everything best, just that the sum of all their parts means they are the best all rounder.
I was going to say if it was my only car, if I didn't have a 911, I might not choose BMW, but thinking about as I type it out, of course I would. I would probably downsize from our 5 series touring and get an M340i touring, or if funds allowed a B3 touring, and a roof box. I have not tried the M3 touring and wouldn't want and over damped car as my every day car, but it could be perfect?
So yeah I am a BMW fan, but that doesn't mean I would want any BMW and there is a big difference there.
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