These fifty grand loans

[skwdenyer]

trickywoo said:

skwdenyer said:

What debacle? I know everyone loves to talk about it, but it was successive (Conservative) chancellors who'd presided over a catastrophic loss of most of our gold holdings' real-terms value. It had depreciated strongly for 20 years. Even though Brown telegraphed his likely sales, the average price obtained was not significantly below the market value.

Yes, gold did subsequently bounce back. Does that mean Brown was wrong to sell it? No; it was for him to make the decision. It was £3.5bn, which was a small number in the context of Government assets and sales.

If we're going to say he was wrong, then what about the debacles of selling off all the utilities, or so many other taxpyer-owned assets?

Wow. I was joking about you actually being him but bingo. At least the flowers on your grave will grow well with all the piss they get soaked in.

Delightful. Of course I’m not him. But I stand by the thesis: if you’re going to moan about the gold, you’ve got to equally moan about all the family silver sold off for peanuts by his predecessors. Otherwise you become just another dogmatic hypocrite with no rational analysis.

[Wombat3]

Countdown said:

Shnozz said:

Terminator X said:

Pretty awkward TBF if you own a business or businesses and can't run them.

I am surprised nothing criminal though for them and the others.

TX.

If the person is prepared to be dishonest with a Covid loan, being a shadow director is hardly going to present any issue.

Indeed. It's the easiest thing in the world to get a partner or relative to act as the sole Director.

The Govt has pi$$ed billions up the wall with BBLs

Maybe more accurate:

Millions of £ were taken from the government (aka the taxpayer, ie the rest of us) because the country is actually full of thieving, dishonest s. Misuse of the BBL scheme was simply fraud/ theft.

The government's mistake was in not recognising that would happen and putting in sufficient checks to prevent it. OTOH if they had done that most of the applications would probably still be being processed.

Rock / hard place.

[skwdenyer]

Wombat3 said:

Maybe more accurate:

Millions of £ were taken from the government (aka the taxpayer, ie the rest of us) because the country is actually full of thieving, dishonest s. Misuse of the BBL scheme was simply fraud/ theft.

The government's mistake was in not recognising that would happen and putting in sufficient checks to prevent it. OTOH if they had done that most of the applications would probably still be being processed.

Rock / hard place.

Given we’ve had Governments full of thieving, dishonest so-and-so’s, coupled with a deliberate defunding of investigatory and prosecutorial capabilities to all-but ensure there’s a huge group of people for whom paying proper taxes is now basically optional, it was inevitable we’d see some fraud. Fraud is, after all, the biggest growth industry the UK has right now; the lack of effort to prevent it can *only* be deliberate.

But what about the central thesis, that a significant percentage of losses to the taxpayer was a deliberate and reasonable aim of the scheme? It would have been better had a proper stimulus package been put in place (the one we had was poor and worse still hugely inconsistent); but at a macro level, pushing £bns into the economy was the only rational response.

[Wombat3]

skwdenyer said:

Wombat3 said:

Maybe more accurate:

Millions of £ were taken from the government (aka the taxpayer, ie the rest of us) because the country is actually full of thieving, dishonest s. Misuse of the BBL scheme was simply fraud/ theft.

The government's mistake was in not recognising that would happen and putting in sufficient checks to prevent it. OTOH if they had done that most of the applications would probably still be being processed.

Rock / hard place.

Given we’ve had Governments full of thieving, dishonest so-and-so’s, coupled with a deliberate defunding of investigatory and prosecutorial capabilities to all-but ensure there’s a huge group of people for whom paying proper taxes is now basically optional, it was inevitable we’d see some fraud. Fraud is, after all, the biggest growth industry the UK has right now; the lack of effort to prevent it can *only* be deliberate.

But what about the central thesis, that a significant percentage of losses to the taxpayer was a deliberate and reasonable aim of the scheme? It would have been better had a proper stimulus package been put in place (the one we had was poor and worse still hugely inconsistent); but at a macro level, pushing £bns into the economy was the only rational response.

Its quite an interesting theory, but maybe a bit too Machiovelian & probably beyond the conceptual ability of most of our politicians!

[MattsCar]

Just to give some balance to this and show that despite fraud going on, these loans were beneficial to a lot of people.

I took a small amount as a bounce back loan for a couple of reasons.

1. I didn't have any idea how bad things would get during Covid (it actually turned out ok as online retail was allowed to continue).

2. It was a great offer in terms of repayments.

I used it to take my business up a gear/level and go for it.

I am still paying it back today, without issue.

I actually think if implemented correctly, to an already sound business who could afford repayments and with some clauses so that the business cannot fold and avoid paying back, low interest business loans could be a real boost to the economy.

[Chamon_Lee]

Wombat3 said:

Countdown said:

Shnozz said:

Terminator X said:

Pretty awkward TBF if you own a business or businesses and can't run them.

I am surprised nothing criminal though for them and the others.

TX.

If the person is prepared to be dishonest with a Covid loan, being a shadow director is hardly going to present any issue.

Indeed. It's the easiest thing in the world to get a partner or relative to act as the sole Director.

The Govt has pi$$ed billions up the wall with BBLs

Maybe more accurate:

Millions of £ were taken from the government (aka the taxpayer, ie the rest of us) because the country is actually full of thieving, dishonest s. Misuse of the BBL scheme was simply fraud/ theft.

The government's mistake was in not recognising that would happen and putting in sufficient checks to prevent it. OTOH if they had done that most of the applications would probably still be being processed.

Rock / hard place.

I would go as far as to say they did know it would happen but they didn't care, the optics of what they were doing was more important that the reality and there lies the problem with all governments: they care more about how they look rather than what they actually do. To put the cherry on the cake they tend to have the mentality of lining their own pockets while they can.
We should have riots on the streets and I think we will in due time when the masses finally realize they have had their pants pulled without knowing it.

[skwdenyer]

Chamon_Lee said:

I would go as far as to say they did know it would happen but they didn't care, the optics of what they were doing was more important that the reality and there lies the problem with all governments: they care more about how they look rather than what they actually do. To put the cherry on the cake they tend to have the mentality of lining their own pockets while they can.
We should have riots on the streets and I think we will in due time when the masses finally realize they have had their pants pulled without knowing it.

I used to predict Revolution, on here and elsewhere. It was clear the social contract between governed and governors had broken down decades ago. How it ultimately manifest was in the Brexit vote - so many voted to leave based on a desire to “stick it to the man” rather than upon any rational analysis of the issues. “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” as the character Howard Beale said in the film Network.

Ironically, that rather took the wind from the sails (or maybe deliberately, not ironically…). Many now simply feel deflated - “even after Brexit, nothing has changed.”

But as regards those loans, I do think they were treated in Government as a quasi-stimulus with the attendant benefit of being able to blame individuals rather than Government for any “mis-spending” of them. In fact, in some senses it was a perfect British Government scheme - deflect the aftermath by getting one set of voters to blame another smaller set of voters Had the Government not set about lining the pockets of their friends during Covid, they might have the moral authority to decry other behaviour. But as we all know, that’s simply not the case.