Being fined at work? No holiday pay? is it legal?

[umar b]

We have just been send another memo saying that people who are late will be fined. i can add that memo to the collection of others we regularly get saying we will be fined if we do this, that, and the other the wrong way.

i just wondered if this was legal to do as i've never heard of staff members getting fined before. this make being a salesman here very difficult because if they make the tiniest of mistakes they have most of their wages taken away as fines. That can not be a good thing as i know how quiet most businesses are at the moment (as well a the car industry) the salesman don't get basic pay either, so they have to tread on egg shell all the time, just to make sure they don't make a mistake. As you can imagine, staff morale isn't at its high.

The other thing i was wondering is if it is legal for the company to not give paid holidays? the rule the management go by is "if you don't work, you don't get paid" is makes going on holiday very complicated, ie i went on holiday for 2.5 weks, when i got back i got nothing, had to work a whole week before i got any money again.

Can a business have this sort of practice? could there be any legal aspects they maybe 'overlooking' to try and make as much money for themselves as possible? while screwing the people who make them their money in the first place

like to have your thoughts.......

[agent006]

Whether it's legal or not, it's time to move on and find somewhere that won't treat you like dirt.

[mannginger]

umar b said:

We have just been send another memo saying that people who are late will be fined. i can add that memo to the collection of others we regularly get saying we will be fined if we do this, that, and the other the wrong way. i just wondered if this was legal to do as i've never heard of staff members getting fined before. this make being a salesman here very difficult because if they make the tiniest of mistakes they have most of their wages taken away as fines. That can not be a good thing as i know how quiet most businesses are at the moment (as well a the car industry) the salesman don't get basic pay either, so they have to tread on egg shell all the time, just to make sure they don't make a mistake. As you can imagine, staff morale isn't at its high. The other thing i was wondering is if it is legal for the company to not give paid holidays? the rule the management go by is "if you don't work, you don't get paid" is makes going on holiday very complicated, ie i went on holiday for 2.5 weks, when i got back i got nothing, had to work a whole week before i got any money again. Can a business have this sort of practice? could there be any legal aspects they maybe 'overlooking' to try and make as much money for themselves as possible? while screwing the people who make them their money in the first place like to have your thoughts.......

Umar - not sure what happens with the fining thing - I would leave if it is at all possible, but I will look around for you to see what I can find out.

As far as not giving you holiday pay - As far as I can tell the company is on exceedingly dodgy ground.

www.dti.gov.uk/er/work_time_regs/wtr7.htm#section7

Should give you some idea - why not ask ACAS or a similar body?

(as per usual I am not an expert etc etc and other such language to cover my back ! )

Phil

[Bodo]

Umar, best you look for another employer as long you're not forced to.

IMHO, a company should be a team with benefits to the company and team members. The arrangement you're working with appears to be very one-sided.

Look for a company with a good atmosphere, because it's your quality of life, you're spending 8h-ish per day! Life is too short to waste time

[pies]

Thought it was European law that everyone in full time employment was entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year.

Anybody prepared to contradict

[plotloss]

Its all very suspect and I would suggest bending quite a lot of laws quite some distance.

[umar b]

agent006 said:

Whether it's legal or not, it's time to move on and find somewhere that won't treat you like dirt.

mannginger said:

Umar - not sure what happens with the fining thing - I would leave if it is at all possible

Bodo said:

Umar, best you look for another employer as long you're not forced to.

I hear what you are saying, unfortunately the job hunting isn't going to well due to companies wasting my time (not recruitment companies, the actual place i went for interviews ) hence the other posts for 'business ideas'

Career path is a bit at the moment and leaving me a bit &

oh well.......

Anyway thanks for the input guys

[eric mc]

There is no legislation covering this type of activity by an employer. Therefore, they can do this if they want to. However, was it a term of your original employment contract? If not, then you would have cause for cpmplaint as the employer would be changin the condidtions wunder which you orinally agreed to work.. If a "fining" clause was part of the original contract which you signed, then you would not have a leg to stand on, I'm afraid.

If no contract was signed, then neither party is commiting a "breach" of anything so at the end of the day, you either accept this provision or move on.

[m-five]

pies said:

Thought it was European law that everyone in full time employment was entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. Anybody prepared to contradict

You are supposed to get 4 weeks holiday at your basic pay rate, however as you have no basic (commission only) you get 4 weeks of nothing!

[umar b]

m-five said:

pies said: Thought it was European law that everyone in full time employment was entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. Anybody prepared to contradict You are supposed to get 4 weeks holiday at your basic pay rate, however as you have no basic (commission only) you get 4 weeks of nothing!

I'am not a salesman, i am on a hourly rate, so i think it maybe different?

Umar

[Hughesie2]

umar b said:

I'am not a salesman, i am on a hourly rate, so i think it maybe different? Umar

Then you are entitled to 4 weeks holiday pay pro-rated by your weekly/monthly pay.

I.E if you worked 48 weeks at 37.5 hours a week you would be entitled to 4 weeks pay at 37.5 hrs pay, employers should make provision for this over the year.

[mannginger]

Hughesie2 said:

umar b said: I'am not a salesman, i am on a hourly rate, so i think it maybe different? Umar Then you are entitled to 4 weeks holiday pay pro-rated by your weekly/monthly pay. I.E if you worked 48 weeks at 37.5 hours a week you would be entitled to 4 weeks pay at 37.5 hrs pay, employers should make provision for this over the year.

Although I believe that this is not inclusive of bank holidays - so you could lose (effectively about 9 days I guess) Still, it sounds like you are getting a bad deal Umar.

Phil

[condor]

pies said:

Thought it was European law that everyone in full time employment was entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. Anybody prepared to contradict

I think that's the case too

Here's a link that might be helpful
www.dti.gov.uk

You should be able to find out everything from there

[Hughesie2]

mannginger said:

Although I believe that this is not inclusive of bank holidays - so you could lose (effectively about 9 days I guess) Still, it sounds like you are getting a bad deal Umar. Phil

Sorry you are right, i was just using Basic arithmatics here for the sake of my brain overloading on a Monday, you could of course use your PAL entitlement to pay yourself over the bank Holiday periods...

[m-five]

umar b said:

m-five said: pies said: Thought it was European law that everyone in full time employment was entitled to 4 weeks holiday per year. Anybody prepared to contradict You are supposed to get 4 weeks holiday at your basic pay rate, however as you have no basic (commission only) you get 4 weeks of nothing! I'am not a salesman, i am on a hourly rate, so i think it maybe different? Umar

In that case you may be on the same type of contract as me. I am quoted as getting £32.50 per hour as that was what I negotiated. When I asked about holiday pay I was told it was included in the hourly rate and it was up to me to save a 13th (52w/4w holiday).

I just spend it instead as I work out I can now work 52 weeks instead of 48 (plus holiday which I am paying for) and make an extra £5k!

[bobthebench]

Unless the contract of employment allows it, such fines are unenforceable and can result in a claim to industrial tribunal for unlawful deduction of wages. Long time since I did one, but think a punitive element can now be imposed as a deterent. Handy to know and threaten.

Sounds like holiday argument could be your employer trying to get cute implying you are in some way self employed. If so, you are not contracted to work for holiday weeks, therefore no contractual payment. Often chanced, seldom done properly. Result you are employed and entitled to payment for holidays. If denied, Industrial tribunal again.

Note the dates for these things and if you do leave, might still be within time limit to claim retrospectively. Try one of these no win no fee lawyers if you want to take it further, or most reputable ones offer a free initial interview to go over the basics. Might even amount to constructive dismissal.

[duntonsr]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think contracts at zero hourly rate are legal.... I thought with the minimum wage these days you had to be paid at least that.

I know that there's ways round it if your staff are "self employed" but if not I thought the minimum wage applied in almost every situation.

[m-five]

duntonsr said:

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think contracts at zero hourly rate are legal.... I thought with the minimum wage these days you had to be paid at least that. I know that there's ways round it if your staff are "self employed" but if not I thought the minimum wage applied in almost every situation.

You'd think that was the case, but the Job Centre still advertises jobs BELOW the NMW - the offered my one at £3.20 an hour after I told them my last contract was at £35/hour - they assumed I had made a error!

[jasper gilder]

If an employer threatens to sack an employee for being late it should be preceded with a series of wornings - if a case of this nature went to tribunal the key question would be if the employers action was "in the band of responses of a reasonable employer" so if you were 20 mins late for a sales meeting where a customer trousered a £2mill order and left the answer would be yes - if it was the first instance of lateness in 12 years service which was otherwise satisfactory, I think the answer would be "no"

You are - if you are an employee - entitled to holiday pay so this looks to me like grounds to get another job and take your existing employer for unfair constructive dismissal