The decline of manual values

[Nomme de Plum]

kambites said:

Deep Thought said:

I can't see any logical reason either.

I guess that comes down to whether you consider "fun" to be logical.

"Logically", we should all be looking forward to complete automation.

On public roads especially Motorways and A routes I'd fully support automation when it becomes intelligent and safe enough to beat driver operation. Surely anything that reduces those 30,000 serious injuries and death(c1800) annually has to be a good thing.

It may even reduce motor insurance if there are less unnecessary collisions and injuries.

There are loads of tracks which allow delusions of Senna-esque performance to be exhibited.

[Deep Thought]

kambites said:

Deep Thought said:

I can't see any logical reason either.

I guess that comes down to whether you consider "fun" to be logical.

"Logically", we should all be looking forward to complete automation.

Correct. Fun is not a logical concept.

For the vast majority of people an auto for day to day driving makes a lot of sense.

I personally don't find changing gears particularly "fun", and certainly much less so during day to day driving duties.

Traffic jam on a motorway - yay where's the gear stick! Nope.

[740EVTORQUES]

Nomme de Plum said:

kambites said:

Deep Thought said:

I can't see any logical reason either.

I guess that comes down to whether you consider "fun" to be logical.

"Logically", we should all be looking forward to complete automation.

On public roads especially Motorways and A routes I'd fully support automation when it becomes intelligent and safe enough to beat driver operation. Surely anything that reduces those 30,000 serious injuries and death(c1800) annually has to be a good thing.

It may even reduce motor insurance if there are less unnecessary collisions and injuries.

There are loads of tracks which allow delusions of Senna-esque performance to be exhibited.

And even track time is likely to be better achieved in a SIM, they’re getting so good. For £5-£10k you can get a SIM that will give you a wider range
of experiences than any cheap track car and you can do it all year round.

I’ve probably done 50 x more laps on the SIM than I’ve managed to fit in on real tracks so far this year and no bills.

[Nomme de Plum]

740EVTORQUES said:

And even track time is likely to be better achieved in a SIM, they’re getting so good. For £5-£10k you can get a SIM that will give you a wider range
of experiences than any cheap track car and you can do it all year round.

I’ve probably done 50 x more laps on the SIM than I’ve managed to fit in on real tracks so far this year and no bills.

At least the SIM is unlikely to catch on fire unlike my S1 Exige. Harness off and out in a blink of an eye. I was lucky a track Marshall had an extinguisher to hand.

[740EVTORQUES]

Nomme de Plum said:

740EVTORQUES said:

And even track time is likely to be better achieved in a SIM, they’re getting so good. For £5-£10k you can get a SIM that will give you a wider range
of experiences than any cheap track car and you can do it all year round.

I’ve probably done 50 x more laps on the SIM than I’ve managed to fit in on real tracks so far this year and no bills.

At least the SIM is unlikely to catch on fire unlike my S1 Exige. Harness off and out in a blink of an eye. I was lucky a track Marshall had an extinguisher to hand.

You'd think so, but....





(The comment from the iRacing spotter was 'all the damage is repairable' )

[Gary C]

Deep Thought said:

Traffic jam on a motorway - yay where's the gear stick! Nope.

Its where you left it !

Where you wanted it to be left, and no bloody computer that thinks it knows better has moved it for you !

[Somewhatfoolish]

Nomme de Plum said:

Fortunately I have one car with just one gear and the other has two.

What are these?

[740EVTORQUES]

Traffic jam?

Put the car on lane keep assist and full adaptive cruise and it crawls along without any input from you - so relaxing!

[kambites]

Deep Thought said:

Traffic jam on a motorway - yay where's the gear stick! Nope.

I get around this one by largely avoiding both traffic jams and motorways. I could count the number of times I've spent more than ten minutes in slow-moving traffic in the last year on the thumbs of one hand.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 19th May 15:56

[a340driver]

Baldchap said:

FMOB said:

Audi are terrible for lag in the gearbox response, basically it is never there when you need it, absolute pile of ste and this is the ZF8 that everyone raves about.

It's all in the software. If you drive an early M4, for instance, the gearbox is so horribly rough that low speed manoeuvres are actually unpleasant. This obviously translates to a snappy shift at higher speeds.

Obviously as time has moved on they have improved since then.

My B9 RS4 was reasonably calm in Drive but far quicker in Sport. That's the balance I guess.

The same gearbox in a different car is set up completely differently, of course.

It isn't 'automatics' that have a problem, it's that the manufacturer sets them up in ways you don't like.

The ZF8 is an Automatic whereas the M4 is a Dual Clutch Transmission.

That's why slow manoeuvres in the M4 take a bit of getting used to.

[driveaway]

Is the trend moving over to auto just a sign of generational laziness....?

I strongly believe, that people who CANNOT drive a manual (not someone who just chooses not to), and hasn't got the license for one, shouldn't really be allowed on the road.
Automatic is essentially the licence to drive a faster, passenger carrying go-kart.
Learning to drive a manual is learning to drive a car.
Learning to drive only automatic, is learning to drive a go-kart.
You might prefer one or the other, but you should know both otherwise as I said above....

[driveaway]

Besides, automatic gearboxex are much less reliable and more costly to fix

[Forester1965]

a340driver said:

The ZF8 is an Automatic whereas the M4 is a Dual Clutch Transmission.

That's why slow manoeuvres in the M4 take a bit of getting used to.

Yep. There isn't a torque converter so at parking speeds you need to be less ham fisted than you can get away with in a regular auto. Never had an issue with it.

Once on the move the DCT changes are every bit as smooth as the ZF. For me best of both worlds, others welcome to think differently.

[DaveCWK]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

You wouldn't. You'd pass in an auto and get an unrestricted full licence. If you need to drive a manual, no official lessons or test required, you just learn from a family member or friend. This has been the way it works in the USA for ever and it's been just fine.

I wouldn't know how to drive a vintage car. I probably couldn't even work out how to start it. If I ever need to drive one, the owner can teach me what to do.

This makes the most sense. I have a SAAB 96 which is a 4 gear manual column shift with freewheel, and it's probably as different to a traditional manual as a manual is from an auto.

[Deep Thought]

kambites said:

Deep Thought said:

Traffic jam on a motorway - yay where's the gear stick! Nope.

I get around this one by largely avoiding both traffic jams and motorways. I could count the number of times I've spent more than ten minutes in slow-moving traffic in the last year on the thumbs of one hand.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 19th May 15:56

As do i, as we both WFH, but if i were to have to endure commuting again, it would definitely be in an auto.

That said, we came up from Dublin Airport this afternoon there up home here - around 80 miles and it was lovely just to drop the M2 in to full auto mode, comfort setting and relax.

I think we were talking about general use and the general public and i think for most normal duties a modern auto is going to be a better choice than a manual.

Whilst i appreciate PH is fulling of Driving Gods, Powerfully Built Company Directors and individuals who like to dominate the stairs, for 99% of people the really is little point in going through 100 clutch in, change gear, clutch out actions every journey / day is pretty pointless and adding nothing to their driving experience.

[Deep Thought]

Forester1965 said:

a340driver said:

The ZF8 is an Automatic whereas the M4 is a Dual Clutch Transmission.

That's why slow manoeuvres in the M4 take a bit of getting used to.

Yep. There isn't a torque converter so at parking speeds you need to be less ham fisted than you can get away with in a regular auto. Never had an issue with it.

Once on the move the DCT changes are every bit as smooth as the ZF. For me best of both worlds, others welcome to think differently.

+1

I love the DCT box. Takes a bit of getting used to but its a great box. Incredibly quick changes. Comfort mode and in to full auto mode for the routine journies, then in the Sport mode and on to the paddles when road and traffic conditions permit.

[Deep Thought]

driveaway said:

Besides, automatic gearboxex are much less reliable and more costly to fix

Are they?

I've had issues over the years with manual boxes - such as syncro going on my Clio 197 - a pretty common fault, but i've never had any issues with auto boxes - i usually have the ZF6, ZF8 or DCT (DCT and ZF8 currently).

And how often do you hear of dual mass flywheel clutches going on manual boxes? Its almost a maintenance item replacing them on a lot of diesel cars.....

[driveaway]

Yes, true that any gearbox could go wrong, I just recently dealt with both a toyota and a honda both manual that had gearbox issues, but I also had automatics, and they are much more common and costly to fix.

[driveaway]

It also depends on the driving habits of the driver (as almost anything would), but even in such a case, I've seen more issues cropping up with the auto's and it being also more costly...

[Deep Thought]

driveaway said:

It also depends on the driving habits of the driver (as almost anything would), but even in such a case, I've seen more issues cropping up with the auto's and it being also more costly...

We'll have to agree to disagree then.