Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
MC Bodge said:
Wombat3 said:
Because I look at the likes of Lammy, Rayner, Dodds, Thornberry & Ashworth & co & I just think they are rubbish!
The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
You ok?The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
You Ok?
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wombat3 said:
I think I do care what he really thinks. If "these people have nearly zero freedom to act" then by extension the Tories must be blameless for the current situation.
Yup, that's exactly what I think.Truss tried to do something "different that she believed in" and reality bit hard.
Productivity is what matters and if they fix that they'd never get elected again.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 8th May 09:42
I have come to the conclusion that social mobility has to at the heart of it.
W124 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wombat3 said:
I think I do care what he really thinks. If "these people have nearly zero freedom to act" then by extension the Tories must be blameless for the current situation.
Yup, that's exactly what I think.Truss tried to do something "different that she believed in" and reality bit hard.
Productivity is what matters and if they fix that they'd never get elected again.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 8th May 09:42
I have come to the conclusion that social mobility has to at the heart of it.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
Wombat3 said:
W124 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wombat3 said:
I think I do care what he really thinks. If "these people have nearly zero freedom to act" then by extension the Tories must be blameless for the current situation.
Yup, that's exactly what I think.Truss tried to do something "different that she believed in" and reality bit hard.
Productivity is what matters and if they fix that they'd never get elected again.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 8th May 09:42
I have come to the conclusion that social mobility has to at the heart of it.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
Wombat3 said:
The private sector will sort itself out in that regard if it has a problem.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
That's not what productivity means in this context. The problem isn't people in work not producing enough. The problem is lots of people not in work at all for all sorts of reasons. I don't think there are any obvious ways to deal with that that any politician could deliver and win an election.For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
Logan's Run would work... ...but would we vote for it?
JagLover said:
Wombat3 said:
The private sector will sort itself out in that regard if it has a problem.
.
Not necessarily if the problem is such things as housing costs, over regulation, infrastructure, energy costs, education and skills, and corporatism. .
Most of that is within government control.
Nobody's gonna vote for a significant change to any of that.
Even the most productive of us are starting work in our 20's and stopping in our 60s and half of us aren't doing even that.
W124 said:
Wombat3 said:
W124 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wombat3 said:
I think I do care what he really thinks. If "these people have nearly zero freedom to act" then by extension the Tories must be blameless for the current situation.
Yup, that's exactly what I think.Truss tried to do something "different that she believed in" and reality bit hard.
Productivity is what matters and if they fix that they'd never get elected again.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 8th May 09:42
I have come to the conclusion that social mobility has to at the heart of it.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
Nonetheless, you also need to go back to basics when things are not working (and plenty of the public sector is clearly not working effectively).
In an arena where there appears to be very little jeopardy, rigour or accountability then you start by getting it back under control. Once you've done that then its training, processes, systems & efficiency.
No different to any business.
I also agree with JL above that (over) regulation and red tape are also a thing though. But then we have become so conditioned to pandering to the lowest common denominator and de-risking everything to the nth degree that a great deal of perspective has been lost (if any remains at all).
Edited by Wombat3 on Wednesday 8th May 15:13
Wombat3 said:
Because I look at the likes of Lammy, Rayner, Dodds, Thornberry & Ashworth & co & I just think they are rubbish!
The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
I have some sympathy here but what is your alternative suggestion then?The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
Edited by Wombat3 on Wednesday 8th May 12:29
In fact I address that to all the Project Fear Labour engine stokers on here. What is your alternative suggestion?
If the answer is simply to vote Conservative again due to 'Labour bogeyman' then I'm afraid I struggle to take that viewpoint seriously.
Wombat3 said:
The private sector will sort itself out in that regard if it has a problem.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
“Private sector good. Public sector bad. Everyone back in the office will sort it out”.For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
You don’t have a clue do you? All of the evidence shows you’re wrong.
BigMon said:
Wombat3 said:
Because I look at the likes of Lammy, Rayner, Dodds, Thornberry & Ashworth & co & I just think they are rubbish!
The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
I have some sympathy here but what is your alternative suggestion then?The jury is out on Reeves though anyone that resorts to copying & pasting from Wikipedia is questionable.
The only ones that stand out as being of any quality are Cooper and Benn (but they are also very very partisan about lots of things, not least the EU situation) and Wes Streeting who has been known to talk some sense and seems the most balanced and realistic of the lot of them.
Miliband is, well, less said the better.
All headed up by Mr Flip-flop himself of course......
Its simply not very encouraging!
(And then you have the Burgon's of this world hiding on the back benches)
Edited by Wombat3 on Wednesday 8th May 12:29
In fact I address that to all the Project Fear Labour engine stokers on here. What is your alternative suggestion?
If the answer is simply to vote Conservative again due to 'Labour bogeyman' then I'm afraid I struggle to take that viewpoint seriously.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Wombat3 said:
I do not have one, I despair at the state of our politics. We will likely get a Labour Government. The best that we can hope for is that they don't do anything too stupid but its doubtful that anything will be in a better state in 5 years - and they are certainly not going to de-regulate or do anything to fix public sector productivity. We will grind on with this "centre ground" nonsense & spend yet more on ever-declining and inefficient public services I suspect.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
If you don't want centre ground, what do you want instead?Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Wombat3 said:
I do not have one, I despair at the state of our politics. We will likely get a Labour Government. The best that we can hope for is that they don't do anything too stupid but its doubtful that anything will be in a better state in 5 years - and they are certainly not going to de-regulate or do anything to fix public sector productivity. We will grind on with this "centre ground" nonsense & spend yet more on ever-declining and inefficient public services I suspect.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Are you going to stop crying about it Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Wombat3 said:
I do not have one, I despair at the state of our politics. We will likely get a Labour Government. The best that we can hope for is that they don't do anything too stupid but its doubtful that anything will be in a better state in 5 years - and they are certainly not going to de-regulate or do anything to fix public sector productivity. We will grind on with this "centre ground" nonsense & spend yet more on ever-declining and inefficient public services I suspect.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
I agree with all that. Unless you have tribal optics firmly affixed the choices are all terrible hence, as I have repeatedly said, it will be a good independent or nothing for me.Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
None of the main parties deserve my vote and the thought of another 4 years of Sunak or Braverman fills me with as much fear as 4 years of Starmer.
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said:Wombat3 said:
I do not have one, I despair at the state of our politics. We will likely get a Labour Government. The best that we can hope for is that they don't do anything too stupid but its doubtful that anything will be in a better state in 5 years - and they are certainly not going to de-regulate or do anything to fix public sector productivity. We will grind on with this "centre ground" nonsense & spend yet more on ever-declining and inefficient public services I suspect.
Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Are you going to stop crying about it Doing the same things and expecting a different result is the very definition of idiocy, but effectively that is what we will do.
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Wombat3 said:
W124 said:
Wombat3 said:
W124 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Wombat3 said:
I think I do care what he really thinks. If "these people have nearly zero freedom to act" then by extension the Tories must be blameless for the current situation.
Yup, that's exactly what I think.Truss tried to do something "different that she believed in" and reality bit hard.
Productivity is what matters and if they fix that they'd never get elected again.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 8th May 09:42
I have come to the conclusion that social mobility has to at the heart of it.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
Nonetheless, you also need to go back to basics when things are not working (and plenty of the public sector is clearly not working effectively).
In an arena where there appears to be very little jeopardy, rigour or accountability then you start by getting it back under control. Once you've done that then its training, processes, systems & efficiency.
No different to any business.
I also agree with JL above that (over) regulation and red tape are also a thing though. But then we have become so conditioned to pandering to the lowest common denominator and de-risking everything to the nth degree that a great deal of perspective has been lost (if any remains at all).
Edited by Wombat3 on Wednesday 8th May 15:13
This country is rotten. The lack of social mobility has knackered our blood supply. Post war, and right up to the end of the Blair gouvernment - we took social mobility seriously. We did so, not because we are nice, but because we need to find the clever people, the people who drive things, who shake them up - they are the energy that powers the machine. We are not drones in this country, all of our great genius has come from innovation.
Part of the post war consensus was acceptance that those people come from all social classes - and they are absolutely essential to productivity. To get them into the system a decent amount of social mobility is needed.
We’ve abandoned this belief. Now it’s who you know, who daddy knows, who you know from school and how good you are at crony corporatism. The private sector is riddled with dead wood.
People for whom the actual performance of their employer is massively secondary to relentless arse-kissing and self advancement. And those people only understand and promote people like them. Self selection of the least efficient and productive. It is acute.
It’s killing us. Sclerosis.
Edited by W124 on Wednesday 8th May 15:35
Electro1980 said:
Wombat3 said:
The private sector will sort itself out in that regard if it has a problem.
For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
“Private sector good. Public sector bad. Everyone back in the office will sort it out”.For the public sector they can start by getting them all back in the office.
You don’t have a clue do you? All of the evidence shows you’re wrong.
But they are subject to the kind of risk and jeopardy that simply does not exist in the public sector so ultimately they will live or die by that. If they don't respond we will go elsewhere.
"Everyone back in the office" will not sort it all out in the public sector, it's just the start to find out who is actually doing what they should be doing and who isn't. who needs training and who doesn't, who needs better facilities/equipment and who needs managing out. Indeed it would be no surprise to find that if we insisted that the amount of office attendance was increased some of them might choose to manage themselves out.
Meantime If you believe they are all beavering away at home to the best of their ability and that they are all putting in a full shift 5 days a week I have a beach hut in Wolverhampton you'd probably be interested in.
Sometimes to get to grips with an issue you need to stop theorising and start doing.
Wombat3 said:
Make no mistake some of the private sector is also appalling - have you tried to deal with a bank or an insurance company lately? I'm sitting here listening to my colleague trying to make bookings & reservations with assorted small businesses, its like wading through treacle, or they just do not answer the phone. .
But they are subject to the kind of risk and jeopardy that simply does not exist in the public sector so ultimately they will live or die by that. If they don't respond we will go elsewhere.
That's just nonsense, what risk and jeopardy do insurance companies and banks face? They have all hiked their premiums, shut branches and boosted their profits, the customer has no alternatives to go to, they may as well be monopolies.But they are subject to the kind of risk and jeopardy that simply does not exist in the public sector so ultimately they will live or die by that. If they don't respond we will go elsewhere.
Garvin said:
Wombat3 said:
<snip>
All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
Damn right! Anyone not doing so in the present climate needs to spend less time on PH and more time sorting their affairs out!All you can do as an individual is to take steps to try & insulate yourself from any stupidity and keep your head down.
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