RE: 2023 INEOS Grenadier | PH Review

[Bill]

Lefty said:

TVR is an interesting comparison.

If somebody bought the name and started building sports cars in Europe with European engines and gearboxes but still on the same ethos of light, simple, powerful and noisy would it attract the same vitriol that the Grenadier does?

I'm not sure vitriol is the word for most. Disappointment maybe? Inability to see a business case too.

If someone built a car that looked a bit like a Wedge but 20% heavier and using a live axle and charged 911 money for it I can see it'd get a similar reaction.

[Bogracer]

If Nigel Farage was a car. Ironically made in France due to Brexit supply chain issues. Plus, it's a load of part bin poorly built rubbish. The new Land Rover is way better. The ultimate gammon chariot.

[Lefty]

Bogracer said:

If Nigel Farage was a car. Ironically made in France due to Brexit supply chain issues. Plus, it's a load of part bin poorly built rubbish. The new Land Rover is way better. The ultimate gammon chariot.

The Farage thing, ok if you think that and care then fine

Made in France due to Brexit? No

Part bin rubbish? BMW/ZF/Brembo/Eibach/recaro/Carraro/Magna Steyr. Sure, absolute rubbish

Poorly built? Well, be careful. Some of the materials may not be great for a £70k vehicle but the structure and drivetrain is where the money has been spent and it shows.

New Land Rover way better? A better road car sure. Serious reliability/longevity concerns. Not really comparable though, it’s like saying an MX5 is way better than a caterham.

[Pflanzgarten]

4.9% interest APR* being offered on all stock Grenadiers from now until the end of the year.

https://view.grenadier.ineos.com/?qs=157e02aefec91...

• Terms and conditions:

Retail sales only. Subject to availability at participating retailers only on vehicles registered between 27th November 2023 and 31st December 2023. 25% minimum deposit. 4.9% APR representative available on Personal Contract Purchase and Purchase Plan. Only available on preconfigured new vehicles and not available on factory orders. Not available in conjunction with other offers. At the end of the agreement there are three options: (i) Part exchange the vehicle where equity is available, (ii) pay the optional final payment to own the vehicle or (ii) Return the vehicle. Further charges may be made subject to the condition or mileage of the vehicle. Finance subject to status. Terms and conditions apply. Applications must be 18 or over. Guarantee may be required. INEOS Automotive Finance, RH1 1SR. INEOS Automotive Limited [t/a INEOS Automotive] are a credit broker (not a lender) for the purposes of this financial promotion. We can introduce you to a limited number of carefully selected finance providers and may receive a commission from them for the introduction.

Edited by Pflanzgarten on Tuesday 28th November 19:52

[Petrus1983]

Just to let you know incase it bothers you - your name is shown on the above link and not in your profile.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

Petrus1983 said:

Just to let you know incase it bothers you - your name is shown on the above link and not in your profile.

He's going to be even more upset when 5 brand new grenadiers get delivered due to PH pranksters.

[Petrus1983]

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Petrus1983 said:

Just to let you know incase it bothers you - your name is shown on the above link and not in your profile.

He's going to be even more upset when 5 brand new grenadiers get delivered due to PH pranksters.

brilliant

[Pflanzgarten]

Petrus1983 said:

TGCOTF-dewey said:

Petrus1983 said:

Just to let you know incase it bothers you - your name is shown on the above link and not in your profile.

He's going to be even more upset when 5 brand new grenadiers get delivered due to PH pranksters.

brilliant

Oops

[silentbrown]

Ineos website.



"...as he breaks down..." may not have been the optimum choice of words

The PCP offer would imply there's excess stock cars with their retailers. Looks like there are some on AT that are proving hard to shift.

[tomvcarter]

Pflanzgarten said:

4.9% interest APR* being offered on all stock Grenadiers from now until the end of the year.

https://view.grenadier.ineos.com/?qs=157e02aefec91...

• Terms and conditions:

Retail sales only. Subject to availability at participating retailers only on vehicles registered between 27th November 2023 and 31st December 2023. 25% minimum deposit. 4.9% APR representative available on Personal Contract Purchase and Purchase Plan. Only available on preconfigured new vehicles and not available on factory orders. Not available in conjunction with other offers. At the end of the agreement there are three options: (i) Part exchange the vehicle where equity is available, (ii) pay the optional final payment to own the vehicle or (ii) Return the vehicle. Further charges may be made subject to the condition or mileage of the vehicle. Finance subject to status. Terms and conditions apply. Applications must be 18 or over. Guarantee may be required. INEOS Automotive Finance, RH1 1SR. INEOS Automotive Limited [t/a INEOS Automotive] are a credit broker (not a lender) for the purposes of this financial promotion. We can introduce you to a limited number of carefully selected finance providers and may receive a commission from them for the introduction.

Edited by Pflanzgarten on Tuesday 28th November 19:52

Im after a Grenadier, is this a good deal?
Sounds like they are desperate to get rid of too much stock.

[Lefty]

It is a good deal, you won’t find 5% apr on a £50k loan anywhere else.

Just watch out for bogeyman spec cars, crap colours and weird spec combinations. Lots of cars with leather, carpets and alloys but no safari windows, lots in more utility spec but with no diff locks for example.

[Pflanzgarten]

Lefty said:

Just watch out for bogeyman spec cars, crap colours and weird spec combinations. Lots of cars with leather, carpets and alloys but no safari windows, lots in more utility spec but with no diff locks for example.

The spec question is really only viable for those who must have a certain thing and in that case-it's a personal choice. Safari windows are a complete misnomer for me-I'd always fit a roof rack which renders then useless and who has ever sat in a car and thought "you know what I need to do now? I need to push the seat back, open the roof a tiny bit and squeeze out to look over the header rail!" unless they're on safari (clue is in the name) and a lion walks past and you don't have time to climb out and get on the roof rack.

Having driven one with diff locks off road as good as it is-I'd never use that capability.

[Lefty]

Fair enough - it’s very much down to the users needs.

I regularly tow a heavy trailer across wet muddy fields and 1-2m of drifting snow isn’t unusual.

The safari windows just made the cabin feel a lot more airy and, somehow, special. Again, personal preference.

Some people will want leather, alloys and the premium sound - don’t interest me at all.

[Pflanzgarten]

all good lefty, that's one of the beauties of the Grenadier (& new Defender), you make it what you want (except for being able to be a commercial vehicle in the grenadier's case!).

In reality I suspect what a lot of prospective owners really want is a rugged, tough looking go anywhere truck they can chuck st in and not really care that much about you doing too much damage while looking pretty cool (even if that's only in your opinion).

In fact when I think about it, I reckon most of us prospective Grenadier owners probably want people to think it's a £40-50k vehicle, something we don't give a ste about but use as that's what it's there to do.

I'm all too aware most people look at my Defender and think it's probably a £100k vehicle. Maybe because I spec'd it to look like one but then who's kidding who?

[blearyeyedboy]

Pflanzgarten said:

In reality I suspect what a lot of prospective owners really want is a rugged, tough looking go anywhere truck they can chuck st in and not really care that much about you doing too much damage while looking pretty cool (even if that's only in your opinion).

... which describes the Grenadier's and Defender's biggest rivals in my opinion: any number of pick up trucks with crew cabs.

They're nowhere near as capable off-road, of course, and nowhere near as carefully-designed and built. However, your average builder, farmer or recreational user simply won't care when comparing their own needs to the price tag, the tax benefits of a commercial vehicle and the fact it'll do almost as good a job for most people, including "Tonka toy chic" for those who enjoy the image.

This isn't to bash the Grenadier, just to say that many people will vote for inferior but "good-enough" medicines at a much lower price, making things very tough for Ineos in the marketplace.

[Pflanzgarten]

blearyeyedboy said:

Pflanzgarten said:

In reality I suspect what a lot of prospective owners really want is a rugged, tough looking go anywhere truck they can chuck st in and not really care that much about you doing too much damage while looking pretty cool (even if that's only in your opinion).

... which describes the Grenadier's and Defender's biggest rivals in my opinion: any number of pick up trucks with crew cabs.

They're nowhere near as capable off-road, of course, and nowhere near as carefully-designed and built. However, your average builder, farmer or recreational user simply won't care when comparing their own needs to the price tag, the tax benefits of a commercial vehicle and the fact it'll do almost as good a job for most people, including "Tonka toy chic" for those who enjoy the image.

This isn't to bash the Grenadier, just to say that many people will vote for inferior but "good-enough" medicines at a much lower price, making things very tough for Ineos in the marketplace.

Just my humble opinion as an actual user of both, a commercial pick up is flawed in other ways as a Defender/Grenadier is. As handy as they are, they are absolutely massive on our roads.

But the main thing is there is a massive business case for those wanting a £60k + luxury type vehicle you can put through the books.

You still can’t do that with the Grenadier. If you could, there’s be thousands who would run one instead of a twin cab pick up.

[blearyeyedboy]

Pflanzgarten said:

Just my humble opinion as an actual user of both, a commercial pick up is flawed in other ways as a Defender/Grenadier is. As handy as they are, they are absolutely massive on our roads.

But the main thing is there is a massive business case for those wanting a £60k + luxury type vehicle you can put through the books.

You still can’t do that with the Grenadier. If you could, there’s be thousands who would run one instead of a twin cab pick up.

I agree entirely. And that, commercially, is what I think is Ineos' biggest challenge.

If I were Sir Jim, I'd be pushing for a team to make one that fits the payload rules so lots more would get through HMRC hurdles.

[blearyeyedboy]

Here's a thought: an Ineos Forward Control, anyone?

[Pflanzgarten]

blearyeyedboy said:

Pflanzgarten said:

Just my humble opinion as an actual user of both, a commercial pick up is flawed in other ways as a Defender/Grenadier is. As handy as they are, they are absolutely massive on our roads.

But the main thing is there is a massive business case for those wanting a £60k + luxury type vehicle you can put through the books.

You still can’t do that with the Grenadier. If you could, there’s be thousands who would run one instead of a twin cab pick up.

I agree entirely. And that, commercially, is what I think is Ineos' biggest challenge.

If I were Sir Jim, I'd be pushing for a team to make one that fits the payload rules so lots more would get through HMRC hurdles.

The thing is, if the two seater station wagon does the after-market will step in to do it just like the Defender Hard Top. You don't need to carry a ton (a Fiesta van can't either), you just need a commercial vehicle with more load space than seating area according to HMRC. I think this is why the Utility wagon had the seats moved forward to accommodate a euro-pallet in the back-but the cabin area still remained bigger hence no ball from HMRC.

Now, if you can order a two seat commercial with large rear loading area you'll eventually be able to do "an Urban" (as I have with my Defender). HMRC will be happy you have a commercial vehicle, they'll also be happy you can fit "temporary rear seats" that can still fold and retain the rear loading space and you'll be good to go.

What Ineos need to focus on id getting HMRC to be happy the two seat commercial wagon is commercial compliant and make rear seats, seat belts and removable window panels freely available to their dealers for anyone who wants "occasional rear seat use".

[Mammasaid]

blearyeyedboy said:

Pflanzgarten said:

Just my humble opinion as an actual user of both, a commercial pick up is flawed in other ways as a Defender/Grenadier is. As handy as they are, they are absolutely massive on our roads.

But the main thing is there is a massive business case for those wanting a £60k + luxury type vehicle you can put through the books.

You still can’t do that with the Grenadier. If you could, there’s be thousands who would run one instead of a twin cab pick up.

I agree entirely. And that, commercially, is what I think is Ineos' biggest challenge.

If I were Sir Jim, I'd be pushing for a team to make one that fits the payload rules so lots more would get through HMRC hurdles.

Where would you cut the weight from? As I understand, the reason for the lack of payload is the unladen weight of ~2.7T, in order to get under the 3.5T threshold that'll take 2-300kg out of the vehicle, no going to happen without a serious redesign.

As a user of one of those pick-ups, extreme off-road ability is actually way down the list of requirements, behind towing, practicality (throwing bags of feed in the back, etc), and being able to be 2 cars in one, a pick-up and a family car.

No-one, apart from a few outliers (300bhp/tonne?) uses even 50% of the off-road ability day to day, as long as you can throw a few fence posts in the back and drive them down to the corner of the field where the bloody sheep are trying to escape......again!