EVs... no one wants them!

[740EVTORQUES]

Unreal said:

Owners with fewer cars tend to have the most entrenched views and the greatest motivation for purchase justification.

Whilst I don't see anything special in the EV driving experience I'll happily have one as a runabout, just as a I would a diesel pickup. I cannot envisage a day when I will want a high performance EV, however fast and however capable. I'm sure many young people (and older as well) today are the polar opposite. I'd just like them to accept that there are areas where we don't want new, even if it's more efficient. I certainly have no need for anything faster than the best ICE cars currently available and I'm not sure I'm that bothered about that to be honest.

As an older man growing up with and lusting after ICE vehicles and whose passion hasn't been diminished by boredom or side-lined by family necessities, there are still so many ICE vehicles I want to own, and that's infinitely preferable any desire to change the method of propulsion.

I still own (and list after) performance ICE vehicles, but that doesn’t stop me enjoying the otherworldly performance of a fast EV, it’s a different experience just as there are many different forms of fast car, but no less enjoyable.

The feeling of an EV hunkering down on a fast sweeping bend and then powering out is hard to beat. The way they can put down the power actually feels a bit like a downforce car (possibly because they tend to have around 1/2 a ton of downforce in the form of a battery pack )

[Olivera]

740EVTORQUES said:

I still own (and list after) performance ICE vehicles, but that doesn’t stop me enjoying the otherworldly performance of a fast EV, it’s a different experience just as there are many different forms of fast car, but no less enjoyable.

All of the credible performance car journalists consistently state that (thus far) performance EVs can't match ICE vehicles for driving enjoyment.

Just reading the Autocar Kia EV6 review: "Feels too big and heavy to be a truly convincing sports saloon alternative"

[Unreal]

740EVTORQUES said:

Unreal said:

Owners with fewer cars tend to have the most entrenched views and the greatest motivation for purchase justification.

Whilst I don't see anything special in the EV driving experience I'll happily have one as a runabout, just as a I would a diesel pickup. I cannot envisage a day when I will want a high performance EV, however fast and however capable. I'm sure many young people (and older as well) today are the polar opposite. I'd just like them to accept that there are areas where we don't want new, even if it's more efficient. I certainly have no need for anything faster than the best ICE cars currently available and I'm not sure I'm that bothered about that to be honest.

As an older man growing up with and lusting after ICE vehicles and whose passion hasn't been diminished by boredom or side-lined by family necessities, there are still so many ICE vehicles I want to own, and that's infinitely preferable any desire to change the method of propulsion.

I still own (and list after) performance ICE vehicles, but that doesn’t stop me enjoying the otherworldly performance of a fast EV, it’s a different experience just as there are many different forms of fast car, but no less enjoyable.

The feeling of an EV hunkering down on a fast sweeping bend and then powering out is hard to beat. The way they can put down the power actually feels a bit like a downforce car (possibly because they tend to have around 1/2 a ton of downforce in the form of a battery pack )

They may have torque and acceleration but otherworldly is fantasy. There are plenty of iCE cars that match EV performance. Try following my GR Yaris powering out of a damp corner. Your car couldn't live with it despite having double the power.

[740EVTORQUES]

Olivera said:

740EVTORQUES said:

I still own (and list after) performance ICE vehicles, but that doesn’t stop me enjoying the otherworldly performance of a fast EV, it’s a different experience just as there are many different forms of fast car, but no less enjoyable.

All of the credible performance car journalists consistently state that (thus far) performance EVs can't match ICE vehicles for driving enjoyment.

Just reading the Autocar Kia EV6 review: "Feels too big and heavy to be a truly convincing sports saloon alternative"

Well having driven one for 18,000 miles rather than probably just an afternoon, as well I respectfully disagree! (Oh and having a 997.1 to compare with, not a bad yardstick)

Have you driven one?

[stevemcs]

740EVTORQUES said:

Well having driven one for 18,000 miles rather than probably just an afternoon, as well I respectfully disagree! (Oh and having a 997.1 to compare with, not a bad yardstick)

Have you driven one?

Surely you can feel the weight difference between a 911 and an EV6

[dmsims]

[740EVTORQUES]

stevemcs said:

740EVTORQUES said:

Well having driven one for 18,000 miles rather than probably just an afternoon, as well I respectfully disagree! (Oh and having a 997.1 to compare with, not a bad yardstick)

Have you driven one?

Surely you can feel the weight difference between a 911 and an EV6

Of course, but that doesn’t stop it being fun, the very low centre of gravity, good front to rear balance and not least the adaptive dampers and e-diff developed by the ex BMW M sport boss make it handle far better than you would imagine. It also runs PS4S tyres not the usual EV low rolling resistance ones.

Just focussing on the overall weight is not sensible. It weighs 500kg more than my old BMW 650i and yet handles far better. And yes I maintain that it is enjoyable as a drivers car when pressing on. Sure it’s a different experience to the 911, but not necessarily worse.

Just as a 911 being more than double the weight of my track car doesn’t automatically make it useless. Its all about balance.

I’m afraid the Autocar journalists have got this one wrong, you need to live with one for a while to really understand it. When they assess value for money in terms of £ per bhp ignoring the totally different power delivery of an EV you can see how formulaic their reviews are. They also obsess about on the limit handling traits that are simply irrelevant in real life driving ignoring the fundamental question ‘is it fun?’, to which the answer is ‘enourmously’. Given the choice again to buy the EV6 or a 911 (for non track use, i.e. not a GT3) I’d go for the EV6 every time.

I get that it’s hard to overcome your prejudices. I’m a through and through petrol head and I didn’t understand EVs till I’d had one to own and use everyday either.

roadandtrack said:

It’s disappointing that Kia used alpha­numeric gobbledygook for this inspired machine’s name. It deserves better. Road & Track has renamed it: Performance Electric Vehicle of the Year.

Imagine how much performance could be unlocked with a set of Michelin Pilot Sports.

We get those in the U.K. and they have impressive grip.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a45645756/kia...

Honestly, If you like torquey sports saloons/ GT’s as I do, and a Taycan is either too big, or more than you want to pay, then you owe it to yourself to try an EV6 GT for a decent test period, it’s quite a machine.

And my 210 mile trip yesterday (without needing to recharge) cost around £6, despite using all the performance. The Porsche would have cost around £70 and not in my considered opinion have been any more ‘fun’.

(I also ironically would have had to stop to refuel the Porsche so it was ready for work this morning, the EV6 did that while I was sleeping…)

Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Monday 20th May 06:08

[Dave200]

M4cruiser said:

Dave200 said:

Shedding is one of the most curious car owner groups. Being snobbish about the fact they maintain a rubbish car on a shoestring because that's all they can afford is madness.

^ That doesn't really sum up sheddists.
I could afford a newer car , or even a new one, by either HP or PLP, but I choose not to.
I actually like the freedom of being able to park in Sainsbury's without worrying about yet another ding.
This is partly why I'm not buying an EV yet (although another family member does have one). I'm simply not changing my car yet, because the old one is still going.

This is going to blow your mind, but people take new cars to the supermarket without a care in the world. You don't need to drive a car held together with hopes, dreams and an intimate relationship with the MOT tester to use it without worry.

[Dave200]

Olivera said:

740EVTORQUES said:

I still own (and list after) performance ICE vehicles, but that doesn’t stop me enjoying the otherworldly performance of a fast EV, it’s a different experience just as there are many different forms of fast car, but no less enjoyable.

All of the credible performance car journalists consistently state that (thus far) performance EVs can't match ICE vehicles for driving enjoyment.

Just reading the Autocar Kia EV6 review: "Feels too big and heavy to be a truly convincing sports saloon alternative"

What about Evo magazine, who gave the Tesla model 3 a 4* review? I'd be willing to bet it's a much more enjoyable drive than a lot of the dross that people own as daily cars.

[GeneralBanter]

neil-c said:

I would also assume there is an expected influx of EVs coming off heavily supported salary sacrifice/ company car scenes in the next 12 months. These users will also be potentially moving back to ICE as the support is not as attractive, energy prices have gone up and free public charging is becoming a thing of the past. The last two reasons will also influence retail buyers.

Is the move to electric cars running out of power? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-69022771

Edited by GeneralBanter on Monday 20th May 07:08

[Maracus]

Somebody wanted my 4+ year old Model 3 that was collected by the lease company on Wednesday.

It was up for sale on AT on Friday, and went on Sunday.

Could write a Craig David song about this....

[tamore]

GeneralBanter said:

neil-c said:

I would also assume there is an expected influx of EVs coming off heavily supported salary sacrifice/ company car scenes in the next 12 months. These users will also be potentially moving back to ICE as the support is not as attractive, energy prices have gone up and free public charging is becoming a thing of the past. The last two reasons will also influence retail buyers.

Is the move to electric cars running out of power? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-69022771

Edited by GeneralBanter on Monday 20th May 07:08

nothing new in that article. all boils down to legacy ICE car manufacturers fully loading their EVs and charging too much for them.

think the negative propaganda has made an impact too.

[Tindersticks]

There’s a rule of thumb for any article that ask a question. The answer is always no.

Holds fast across every sector.

[Dave200]

tamore said:

GeneralBanter said:

neil-c said:

I would also assume there is an expected influx of EVs coming off heavily supported salary sacrifice/ company car scenes in the next 12 months. These users will also be potentially moving back to ICE as the support is not as attractive, energy prices have gone up and free public charging is becoming a thing of the past. The last two reasons will also influence retail buyers.

Is the move to electric cars running out of power? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-69022771

Edited by GeneralBanter on Monday 20th May 07:08

nothing new in that article. all boils down to legacy ICE car manufacturers fully loading their EVs and charging too much for them.

think the negative propaganda has made an impact too.

I posted some links a couple of dozen pages ago showing clear evidence of anti-ev propaganda from those with vested interests in oil money. The same stuff then gets parroted by people all over the internet. It's sad that they can't see how they are being manipulated.

[GeneralBanter]

Dave200 said:

I posted some links a couple of dozen pages ago showing clear evidence of anti-ev propaganda from those with vested interests in oil money. The same stuff then gets parroted by people all over the internet. It's sad that they can't see how they are being manipulated.

Exactly the same can be said for the subsidies to manipulate the market in favour of EV without which the market would die, and the false premise behind EV to start with as they’re like pissing in the Atlantic.

So who is being manipulated - those that are continuing to do what they always have or those who are told to do something different and given an incentive ?

[Tindersticks]

7.30 on a Monday morning and we’re off again.

[Dave200]

GeneralBanter said:

Dave200 said:

I posted some links a couple of dozen pages ago showing clear evidence of anti-ev propaganda from those with vested interests in oil money. The same stuff then gets parroted by people all over the internet. It's sad that they can't see how they are being manipulated.

Exactly the same can be said for the subsidies to manipulate the market in favour of EV without which the market would die, and the false premise behind EV to start with as they’re like pissing in the Atlantic.

So who is being manipulated - those that are continuing to do what they always have or those who are told to do something different and given an incentive ?

The subsidies are literally as transparent an incentive as it's possible to get. Meanwhile, the effect of retired Fred from Grimsby running around online news comment sections telling everyone to avoid EVs because hydrogen is the future, because he's read some unattributed propaganda, is insidious. Fred is out there railing against EVs without realising he's being manipulated.

Edited by Dave200 on Monday 20th May 07:51

[DonkeyApple]

GeneralBanter said:

Is the move to electric cars running out of power? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-69022771

Edited by GeneralBanter on Monday 20th May 07:08

It was an interesting article but it isn't UKcentric in its focus but global. Globally we have a debt monkey, apex consumer reaming going on in China, the world's largest consumer EV market by multiples which means just one market going through a period of being told their speculative property portfolio is worth nothing so they can't borrow anything for the latest car has big ramifications for global statistics. You then have the issue in the US where they're beginning to wake up to it being just a little bit harder to use an EV to travel between cities when the gap between them isn't 100km but 1000km and there are no pre-existing power cables in the air or ground along the road network.

There's also the data skew risk from there being a dominant manufacturer/vendor in the West, ie Tesla. The stats from a single vendor can skew the data and they've been losing share and customers. The reason for the customer loss is that as a brand they had an abnormally high percentage rate of younger people borrowing to get their product. That you get demographic is being told they can't borrow as much as they have nothing a bailiff wants.

Europe just had an energy shock due to their 20 year policy of pushing more and more into the ex USSR territories and thinking that giving Russia some money for gas would fin off some 4' genocidal mentalist. In times of pant soiling, consumers tend to revert to less adventurous consumption.

In short, there are lots or arguments as to why global sales are under pressure. Albeit rather obvious that the most obvious and relevant one is that manufacturers are asking too much money for what is a tin box, with a battery, an electric motor and a glued on discount TV screen instead of any expensive buttons. The manufacturers want the subsidies for themselves rather than letting the consumer have them.

But the U.K. isn't the global market but one part of it so we need to look at our unique situation. Firstly, we don't make EVs, we import them like we do fridges, TVs etc so we don't care whether a company building cars in Slovakia can't compete against a company in Asia. Not our problem and certainly not anything we need to be subsidising with tax payer money.

The U.K. is abnormally affluent with a massive global service economy that is low carbon and can bankroll the whole country to deliver a higher standard of living than could otherwise be achieved and with more than enough consumers able to be lent £30-60k to use a car so there isn't a big financing issue.

The U.K. is also tiny so inhabitants simply aren't having to drive 200+ mile journeys on a regular basis, in fact in terms of essential journeys, ie one's conducted for the purpose of work, they barely ever need to travel any kind of distance because such a job can and is and will be deleted from the books and replaced with the superior low travel alternative such as using local labour etc.

We also have electricity ubiquity. There isn't a corner of the inhabited U.K. without access to the Grid, unlike many nations which have no such infrastructure ubiquity.

U.K. power generation can genuinely displace fossil fuels as the backbone supply. This is unbelievably critical and everyone finally understands this as they've just seen and lived through the risk of having a domestic energy market beholden to international pricing. No one can now not understand why replacing both oil and gas as the primary energy fuels is simply not even up for debate as there is no defence to leaving the U.K. economy and the financial security of its people unnecessarily exposed to the global pricing of oil and gas. Or petrol for that matter. Just look at how petrol at the pumps has risen 10p/litre for no other reason than the global price of gasoline has increased. The price of oil hasn't increased. Nor has the cost of refining it for petrol within the U.K. it's just that because the refiners price on global demand when that increases so it does for us.

The U.K. also has a very high level of private parking and a very wide and even distribution of retail parking space. We have shoppers' paradises out in every corner.

So we don't actually or logically want to concerning ourselves about Chinese debt monkeys, US god fearing, oil worshipping fascists or their infrastructure issues caused by their enormous land mass and population distributions. Nor is the fact that Germany chose to build its entire national energy program upon the need to suck Russian balls our concern other than them suddenly hitting the TTF and U.K. gas markets costing us £billions in the U.K.

What we need to be doing is asking what's in it for us. We have the simplest and cheapest path to predominantly EV transport, we have a vital need to disconnect from the risk of global energy markets and not only can we afford EVs but we are wholly agnostic as to which companies succeed and which fail.

So articles about the global market are interesting but obviously can't be used to define one of the smaller markets that comprise it. We need to look at and concern ourselves about the U.K. not anyone else's woes.

And should you want the sad counter to the BBC article then Bobby LL has done a video that whinges in response about how anything negative is bad and how he is being oppressed by naysayers.

[ACCYSTAN]

To be fair,
hydrogen and electric are 2 of the future solutions, neither electricity nor hydrogen will be the default answer for every situation.
There is even a role for ICE especially hybrid ICE in the medium term.

[Unreal]

ACCYSTAN said:

To be fair,
hydrogen and electric are 2 of the future solutions, neither electricity nor hydrogen will be the default answer for every situation.
There is even a role for ICE especially hybrid ICE in the medium term.

Well yes. Problem for me is, when has a government hit such ambitious targets? Such is the denial and desperation that I am increasingly reminded of the Iraqi Foreign Minister standing on a roof telling us there were no Americans in Iraq with explosions going off behind him. In business you'd be accepting YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET THERE but not with EVs and Climate Change, it's just a tragic version of it'll be all right on the night.

Edited by Unreal on Monday 20th May 08:59