EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
RayDonovan said:
Fully understand why someone would lease or PCP a brand new EV - the depreciation risk is high and financing offers you a known monthly payment.
I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
Yup. Never used consumer finance but if I were buying a new EV I would categorically rent it for three years. Likewise if I were wanting a silly priced toy, I'd rent that. I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
Frankly, if I ever have another BMW I'll rent it as Is rather pay well over the odds than drive around in a car knowing that at some point I have to face the people who buy used BMWs and that group contains some of the most ghastly and infuriating people that you'd never logically put yourself in the firing line to meet.
DonkeyApple said:
RayDonovan said:
Fully understand why someone would lease or PCP a brand new EV - the depreciation risk is high and financing offers you a known monthly payment.
I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
They're unlikely to have paid cash but instead mean they didn't use dealer finance. In the early days I'm not sure there was much PCP offering on Tesla's as Tesla were actually selling the cars rather than loading them on to their balance sheet and PCP requires knowing the value in three years time. So the typical Tesla buyer used finance that left them carrying the depreciation risk. The benefit for Tesla is that it meant they could dump used prices whenever they wanted to or needed to boost demand to prevent inventory pile up without any risk of blowing a hole in their balance sheet and instead blowing a million small holes in the owners' pockets. The brand attracted an abnormal number of image junkies who'll say they paid cash but typically just used alternate funding. I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
I'm after a used Model Y fairly soon, but it'll be 50/50 cash and bank loan. £25k for a LR MY will do me nicely..
Very well put DA.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
RayDonovan said:
Probably. I guess most of the owners are trying to portray an image of being cash rich (but as you say, using some form of finance)
I'm after a used Model Y fairly soon, but it'll be 50/50 cash and bank loan. £25k for a LR MY will do me nicely..
The way I look at that is that something like a Model Y will easily last another ten years so my version of man maths is that equates to a purchase cost equivalent of £100/month. You lose your 4% yield on the cash and have 8% on the borrowings but these are small sums that are likely to be easily covered by the lower maintenance costs over the period and the real man maths kicks in if you're genuinely saving more than £100/month on the fuel cost differential at which point by the rules of man maths you're actually getting a free car at worst and potentially being paid opportunity cost to have. I'm after a used Model Y fairly soon, but it'll be 50/50 cash and bank loan. £25k for a LR MY will do me nicely..
If I swapped my S4 (which I paid cash for due to being a living legend) for a Y I'd technically be being paid to have a car.
Unfortunately due to being a living legend I can't tear myself away from stinky petrol just yet and until the building work at home is finished I won't have power at the front of the house. And I'm not sure my short temper is appropriate for living with a touchscreen on wheels connected to the insane kind of the Musk. Dave200 said:
Yes, I bet you were conveniently testing family saloons right before you bought a small coupe with less power than my whisk. Pull the other one.
Actually I was in the market for a car in the mid 30's price bracket to use as a daily driver. I was basically set on a BMW M2 competition. I had test driven both the M3 performance and the MG4 X-Power (Brand new) but they both fell well short of the M2 in pretty much every metric. Sure the acceleration of the EV's was cool at first but its not the same as say a litre sports bike which has the added audio to go with it. Once that 1 trick pony is out of the way I found them very dull to drive but my mileage is small and I live in the countryside with beautiful roads so maybe what I require from a car is different to you
I never even gave the GR86 a thought. I missed the first allocation because they sold out in 90 minutes and registered my interest on a whim and out of the blue I got an email from Toyota, paid the deposit, went for a test drive and the rest is history.
Ref Bricktops above post. Good for you having given the MG4 XPower a test drive. Behind the headline figures it’s not as good as it should be. I just dumped an MG4 Trophy which was ok and awful in equal measures. It seems that an EV wouldn’t work for you presently but good on you for giving it a fair chance.
DonkeyApple said:
The way I look at that is that something like a Model Y will easily last another ten years so my version of man maths is that equates to a purchase cost equivalent of £100/month. You lose your 4% yield on the cash and have 8% on the borrowings but these are small sums that are likely to be easily covered by the lower maintenance costs over the period and the real man maths kicks in if you're genuinely saving more than £100/month on the fuel cost differential at which point by the rules of man maths you're actually getting a free car at worst and potentially being paid opportunity cost to have.
If I swapped my S4 (which I paid cash for due to being a living legend) for a Y I'd technically be being paid to have a car. Unfortunately due to being a living legend I can't tear myself away from stinky petrol just yet and until the building work at home is finished I won't have power at the front of the house. And I'm not sure my short temper is appropriate for living with a touchscreen on wheels connected to the insane kind of the Musk.
At the other end of the scale this is where bangernomics can also be great if you play your cards right. I am at the other end of the scale to yourself but I have basically driven for free for the past 10 years in terms of assets and all three cars have appreciated in that time. If bought correctly a banger ends up becoming a classic if it has been cared for. The Toyota Celica I had bought in 2012 is now insured for 900% of its original value that I paid. I just wish Captain Hindsight told me to buy a few 993's when they were going for 15 grand a pop at the same time. If I swapped my S4 (which I paid cash for due to being a living legend) for a Y I'd technically be being paid to have a car.
Unfortunately due to being a living legend I can't tear myself away from stinky petrol just yet and until the building work at home is finished I won't have power at the front of the house. And I'm not sure my short temper is appropriate for living with a touchscreen on wheels connected to the insane kind of the Musk. It all depends on the deal, I normally buy second hand, but recently took the eny1 lease deal.
I was planning to buy a 3 year old polestar 2, but figured the eny1 deal was sufficiently cheap at £200 a month, that it made sense to lease for 2 years and then see where the market is then.
The deal itself has to be judged on its own merits and for me this one made sense. Doesn’t mean I will necessarily replace with a lease.
I recognise the Honda deal was unusual in how competitive it was. Had it have been say £400 a month, I wouldn’t have leased.
So for now have stuck the £20k I was planning to spend in an isa.
I was planning to buy a 3 year old polestar 2, but figured the eny1 deal was sufficiently cheap at £200 a month, that it made sense to lease for 2 years and then see where the market is then.
The deal itself has to be judged on its own merits and for me this one made sense. Doesn’t mean I will necessarily replace with a lease.
I recognise the Honda deal was unusual in how competitive it was. Had it have been say £400 a month, I wouldn’t have leased.
So for now have stuck the £20k I was planning to spend in an isa.
740EVTORQUES said:
Very well put DA.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
The great thing about deciding to save up for something a that usually by the time you've saved up the amount you've realised the thing you wanted isn't worth exchanging that hard earned money for. The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
Bit not everyone earns enough to be able to save and transport is critical for that work plus banks won't lend enough to get a good used car so making use of the cheapest lease available at the time, which also dials out random bill risk isn't a bad thing.
It's all about using and not abusing which can be difficult as the product exists to facilitate abuse.
740EVTORQUES said:
Very well put DA.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
So she went a whole year without a car, now has an artificial understanding of interest, and bought a car that'll probably cost her the same again in repair, maintenance and missed appointments.
RayDonovan said:
Fully understand why someone would lease or PCP a brand new EV - the depreciation risk is high and financing offers you a known monthly payment.
I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
I usually lease but bought the Model 3 outright, expecting 50% depreciation over four years and that worked out significantly cheaper than the lease did.I think a used 2/3 year old EV will be a decent buy when they've depreciated ~50% and you have the cash/bank loan to pay for it.
Surprising number of people on the Tesla forums who paid cash for a Model 3/Y and have lost a huge amount in a few years..
Evanivitch said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Very well put DA.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
The first thing I made my newly in the workforce daughter do when she wanted a car was to eschew all the £150pcm lease offers and instead put her monthly savings into a high interest account which I topped up to make the effective interest rate 5% after tax. After a year she’d saved up enough to buy a decent second hand car outright and pay for the insurance.
I consider the money I added to her savings money well spent to teach her financial discipline as she’s now enthusiastic about saving, waiting and seeing her money grow to a size where she can buy her first flat.
And she doesn’t mind where she parks her car because it’s not brand new and leased.
So she went a whole year without a car, now has an artificial understanding of interest, and bought a car that'll probably cost her the same again in repair, maintenance and missed appointments.
She now has a healthy attitude to spending.
(regarding missed appointments - what? - I bought used until well into my 50's and never missed anything through breakdowns, you just need to have a basic ability to spot a lemon in the used market and take some care of your cars.)
Would it have been better for her to start her adult financial life thinking you can get a shiny new toy every 2 years for nothing and never mind saving for the big purchases that young people need to plan for?
BricktopST205 said:
DonkeyApple said:
The way I look at that is that something like a Model Y will easily last another ten years so my version of man maths is that equates to a purchase cost equivalent of £100/month. You lose your 4% yield on the cash and have 8% on the borrowings but these are small sums that are likely to be easily covered by the lower maintenance costs over the period and the real man maths kicks in if you're genuinely saving more than £100/month on the fuel cost differential at which point by the rules of man maths you're actually getting a free car at worst and potentially being paid opportunity cost to have.
If I swapped my S4 (which I paid cash for due to being a living legend) for a Y I'd technically be being paid to have a car. Unfortunately due to being a living legend I can't tear myself away from stinky petrol just yet and until the building work at home is finished I won't have power at the front of the house. And I'm not sure my short temper is appropriate for living with a touchscreen on wheels connected to the insane kind of the Musk.
At the other end of the scale this is where bangernomics can also be great if you play your cards right. I am at the other end of the scale to yourself but I have basically driven for free for the past 10 years in terms of assets and all three cars have appreciated in that time. If bought correctly a banger ends up becoming a classic if it has been cared for. The Toyota Celica I had bought in 2012 is now insured for 900% of its original value that I paid. I just wish Captain Hindsight told me to buy a few 993's when they were going for 15 grand a pop at the same time. If I swapped my S4 (which I paid cash for due to being a living legend) for a Y I'd technically be being paid to have a car.
Unfortunately due to being a living legend I can't tear myself away from stinky petrol just yet and until the building work at home is finished I won't have power at the front of the house. And I'm not sure my short temper is appropriate for living with a touchscreen on wheels connected to the insane kind of the Musk. BricktopST205 said:
At the other end of the scale this is where bangernomics can also be great if you play your cards right. I am at the other end of the scale to yourself but I have basically driven for free for the past 10 years in terms of assets and all three cars have appreciated in that time. If bought correctly a banger ends up becoming a classic if it has been cared for. The Toyota Celica I had bought in 2012 is now insured for 900% of its original value that I paid. I just wish Captain Hindsight told me to buy a few 993's when they were going for 15 grand a pop at the same time.
I bought a manual gen 1 NSX for £16k back in the day (still have it)I remind my wife of my clearly god-like car purchasing skills every time she complains that I’m shopping for another toy
Mikebentley said:
This always makes me chuckle. Early 90’s I purchased a MK2 RS2000 Custom that was in fantastic condition for £1800.00 six months later whilst an RSOC meeting and fed up of offers to buy it I put a sign in the windscreen £4.5k. Everyone said you will never get that which I knew but it stopped all the pestering from people…. Until someone paid it! I was chuffed with the cash but captain hindsight would say north of £40k today!
Early 90's I was barely out of nappies but I can remember plenty of 3 door MK2 escorts doing the rounds at the local banger racing!Dave200 said:
Shedding is one of the most curious car owner groups. Being snobbish about the fact they maintain a rubbish car on a shoestring because that's all they can afford is madness.
^ That doesn't really sum up sheddists.I could afford a newer car , or even a new one, by either HP or PLP, but I choose not to.
I actually like the freedom of being able to park in Sainsbury's without worrying about yet another ding.
This is partly why I'm not buying an EV yet (although another family member does have one). I'm simply not changing my car yet, because the old one is still going.
M4cruiser said:
^ That doesn't really sum up sheddists.
I could afford a newer car , or even a new one, by either HP or PLP, but I choose not to.
I actually like the freedom of being able to park in Sainsbury's without worrying about yet another ding.
This is partly why I'm not buying an EV yet (although another family member does have one). I'm simply not changing my car yet, because the old one is still going.
I have a new car and a shed. I will also be mortgage free in my early 40's partly because instead of wasting money on depreciating assets I have put it into paying off my mortgage or more recently high interest savings. Unfortunately we live in a society that is like this and ultimately stereotypes people into these pigeon holes. My neighbour over the road must have lost tens of thousands on cars over the same period with nothing to show for it.I could afford a newer car , or even a new one, by either HP or PLP, but I choose not to.
I actually like the freedom of being able to park in Sainsbury's without worrying about yet another ding.
This is partly why I'm not buying an EV yet (although another family member does have one). I'm simply not changing my car yet, because the old one is still going.
Our shed as you say is perfect for being able to park where you want, chuck the dogs in the back, not to worry about kids spilling stuff on the seats. That being said it still has 300 BHP, has dual zone climate, android auto, cruise control, heated seats. Pretty much everything you want. Will do close to 40mpg on a run being a petrol. It has even appreciated by over 100% in the 10 years I have owned it so all I have spent on it has cost me zilch net.
It also has 4 matching Goodyear eagle F1's on all four corners, totally refreshed suspension in the last 3 years, parts of the interior retrimmed and even paint touched up! It is currently coming up to 180k but drives like new and will be doing a 1500 mile trip across Europe next month. Will do 160mph off the clock on the Autobahn although she is getting old now so I will not be that silly again.
Pulling up to the pumps and seeing an elderly couple complement your "banger" last month was a nice touch too.
I love my new car don't get me wrong but my old banger which I have had years is almost part of the family now.Owners with fewer cars tend to have the most entrenched views and the greatest motivation for purchase justification.
Whilst I don't see anything special in the EV driving experience I'll happily have one as a runabout, just as a I would a diesel pickup. I cannot envisage a day when I will want a high performance EV, however fast and however capable. I'm sure many young people (and older as well) today are the polar opposite. I'd just like them to accept that there are areas where we don't want new, even if it's more efficient. I certainly have no need for anything faster than the best ICE cars currently available and I'm not sure I'm that bothered about that to be honest.
As an older man growing up with and lusting after ICE vehicles and whose passion hasn't been diminished by boredom or side-lined by family necessities, there are still so many ICE vehicles I want to own, and that's infinitely preferable any desire to change the method of propulsion.
Whilst I don't see anything special in the EV driving experience I'll happily have one as a runabout, just as a I would a diesel pickup. I cannot envisage a day when I will want a high performance EV, however fast and however capable. I'm sure many young people (and older as well) today are the polar opposite. I'd just like them to accept that there are areas where we don't want new, even if it's more efficient. I certainly have no need for anything faster than the best ICE cars currently available and I'm not sure I'm that bothered about that to be honest.
As an older man growing up with and lusting after ICE vehicles and whose passion hasn't been diminished by boredom or side-lined by family necessities, there are still so many ICE vehicles I want to own, and that's infinitely preferable any desire to change the method of propulsion.
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