Discussion
sorry to hear of the issues you've experienced.
Frankly he's a BS merchant. He's more likely to have been in touch with his barista
It would be interesting to know exactly what he suggests the police will do if he does contact them? If you do a s
te job then don't be surprised if you get a ste review!
I would suggest telling him you'd like to give him the opportunity to avoid the small claims (by returning £x) but to be under no illusion that if you have to go that route then all bets are off and there will be no further communication on the matter except via the court.
He may well be a man of straw so the court route may not yield the desired result in cash terms but it will cause him a few issues.
As for the patio. As others have mentioned, these should have been laid on a properly prepped sub base on a full wet bed of mortar with the backs of the slabs primed (with sbr slurry / marshalls pave primer or similar). Any pro doing otherwise will struggle to justify that they've followed best practice especially when said guidelines are clearly stated on Marshalls and other suppliers websites.
Good luck with finding a way to resolve things
Edit: I see that during my glacial typing spree that KAgantua also shares my Barista theory
Frankly he's a BS merchant. He's more likely to have been in touch with his barista
It would be interesting to know exactly what he suggests the police will do if he does contact them? If you do a s
te job then don't be surprised if you get a ste review!I would suggest telling him you'd like to give him the opportunity to avoid the small claims (by returning £x) but to be under no illusion that if you have to go that route then all bets are off and there will be no further communication on the matter except via the court.
He may well be a man of straw so the court route may not yield the desired result in cash terms but it will cause him a few issues.
As for the patio. As others have mentioned, these should have been laid on a properly prepped sub base on a full wet bed of mortar with the backs of the slabs primed (with sbr slurry / marshalls pave primer or similar). Any pro doing otherwise will struggle to justify that they've followed best practice especially when said guidelines are clearly stated on Marshalls and other suppliers websites.
Good luck with finding a way to resolve things
Edit: I see that during my glacial typing spree that KAgantua also shares my Barista theory
Edited by no eye deer on Monday 29th April 23:47
LOL yes, great minds...
Thinking about this, reminds me of a story a few years ago - I had indian sandstone laid at my house by some old guys I had used before. I knew the backs should be buttered with SBR mix , and they woudnt work without.
I had to show them how to do it - they did a pretty great job apart from that, but again, older guys, stuck in their ways. Almost none of the slabs have since lifted (Was done maybe 8 years ago?)
Thinking about this, reminds me of a story a few years ago - I had indian sandstone laid at my house by some old guys I had used before. I knew the backs should be buttered with SBR mix , and they woudnt work without.
I had to show them how to do it - they did a pretty great job apart from that, but again, older guys, stuck in their ways. Almost none of the slabs have since lifted (Was done maybe 8 years ago?)
no eye deer said:
sorry to hear of the issues you've experienced.
Frankly he's a BS merchant. He's more likely to have been in touch with his barista
It would be interesting to know exactly what he suggests the police will do if he does contact them? If you do a ste job then don't be surprised if you get a ste review!
I would suggest telling him you'd like to give him the opportunity to avoid the small claims (by returning £x) but to be under no illusion that if you have to go that route then all bets are off and there will be no further communication on the matter except via the court.
He may well be a man of straw so the court route may not yield the desired result in cash terms but it will cause him a few issues.
No worries, not sure he knows that I have his address so a letter will be sent this week recorded highlighting the issues. If no response then i’ll press on with MCOL.Frankly he's a BS merchant. He's more likely to have been in touch with his barista
It would be interesting to know exactly what he suggests the police will do if he does contact them? If you do a s
te job then don't be surprised if you get a ste review!I would suggest telling him you'd like to give him the opportunity to avoid the small claims (by returning £x) but to be under no illusion that if you have to go that route then all bets are off and there will be no further communication on the matter except via the court.
He may well be a man of straw so the court route may not yield the desired result in cash terms but it will cause him a few issues.
Just make sure you have all your ducks in a row, some guys off a car forum saying it's wrong because of X, Y and Z won't cut it if it does go the court route. You'll need reports on what is wrong with what this cowboy has done. You will obviously need these reports doing based on what can be seen now and if you intend of having someone else rectify it quick so you can use the patio, you will need the reports prior to rectification. The guys obviously a cowboy, with some tax evasion going on, just don't want you to be caught out as you absolutely deserve a significant refund.
Some interesting quotes here considering I just had a patio put in albeit in Scotland.
I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
mdw said:
Just be aware if you do win it's more than likely you won't collect anything back. Done 2 of these and got 0 back despite winning. 1 sent baliffs got zero. The other he went bankrupt.
I know someone who had this with a cowboy driveway job. They went to see a solicitor but they basically told them there's no point as you'll never see a penny. Be interesting to hear if anyone has been successful.John87 said:
Some interesting quotes here considering I just had a patio put in albeit in Scotland.
I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
Purosangue said:
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
Well I'm delighted with the price and the work £3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
It's definitely not a typical quote from a typical business. The company I hired are actually part of a local zoo so they have the equipment and already have the manpower payed for. Muck away was taking it back to use on the zoo with their own tractor. When the zoo is quiet or has less work needing done, they keep the landscaping staff busy by doing gardens with the zoo keeping any profit. Works well for all parties although I did lose a couple of days in the middle because they needed to go and build a new animal enclosure for an imminent arrival!
John87 said:
Purosangue said:
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
Well I'm delighted with the price and the work £3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
It's definitely not a typical quote from a typical business. The company I hired are actually part of a local zoo so they have the equipment and already have the manpower payed for. Muck away was taking it back to use on the zoo with their own tractor. When the zoo is quiet or has less work needing done, they keep the landscaping staff busy by doing gardens with the zoo keeping any profit. Works well for all parties although I did lose a couple of days in the middle because they needed to go and build a new animal enclosure for an imminent arrival!
Wonder if the zoo is licensed to receive muck away, or the tractor to carry it?
John87 said:
Purosangue said:
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
Well I'm delighted with the price and the work £3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
It's definitely not a typical quote from a typical business. The company I hired are actually part of a local zoo so they have the equipment and already have the manpower payed for. Muck away was taking it back to use on the zoo with their own tractor. When the zoo is quiet or has less work needing done, they keep the landscaping staff busy by doing gardens with the zoo keeping any profit. Works well for all parties although I did lose a couple of days in the middle because they needed to go and build a new animal enclosure for an imminent arrival!
Purosangue said:
John87 said:
Some interesting quotes here considering I just had a patio put in albeit in Scotland.
I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
Did my own last year, only 4m x 2m but try digging that out by hand and barrowing it into a skip … nearly did meself in.
Then MoT Type 1 compacted with a hired whacker and porcelain slabs laid over a wet base with the backs heavily SBR’d - none have moved yet. So it is possible to do it yourself but it’s a bloody faff. However, at the end, you can sit back and count how much you’ve saved and spend that on summat else.
Best of luck with getting it sorted …
Then MoT Type 1 compacted with a hired whacker and porcelain slabs laid over a wet base with the backs heavily SBR’d - none have moved yet. So it is possible to do it yourself but it’s a bloody faff. However, at the end, you can sit back and count how much you’ve saved and spend that on summat else.
Best of luck with getting it sorted …
Purosangue said:
If your a father and son outfit , yes you can make a decent profit , its a different story for an established VAT registered building company who have time served surveyors , and a team of professional carpenters , builders etc , running an office and warehouse and are prepared to guarantee their work , not much profit to be made competing on a small patio
an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
That seems like a lot to me, because you've not done any of the work, just organised other people to do it for you. The real profit in the job is your £800 plus the £2,500 that the people doing the actual building took out of the job as well.an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 29th April 22:39
Sorry to hear things have gone badly OP, I am getting quotes for my own patio at the moment and I'm honestly dreading going ahead with it as I see so many folk getting ripped off. How are you supposed to limit the chances of this happening?? I dont know anyone who has had a patio done in recent times to get word of mouth recommendations.
Purosangue said:
If your a father and son outfit , yes you can make a decent profit , its a different story for an established VAT registered building company who have time served surveyors , and a team of professional carpenters , builders etc , running an office and warehouse and are prepared to guarantee their work , not much profit to be made competing on a small patio
an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
8% pure profit a week isn't too shabby. If your proper VAT registered company has 4 or 5 jobs going at that rate they'll be doing OK.an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 29th April 22:39
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