The decline of manual values
Discussion
I've avoided Autos as much as possible!
Probably because I've only had 4 and they were all 70s/80s 3 or 4 speed torque-convertor set-ups that were slow, thirsty and generally crap, but were fitted to cars that hardly ever existed with a manual.
So now after 48 years driving both my cars are manuals. Not commuting probably helps.
Probably because I've only had 4 and they were all 70s/80s 3 or 4 speed torque-convertor set-ups that were slow, thirsty and generally crap, but were fitted to cars that hardly ever existed with a manual.
So now after 48 years driving both my cars are manuals. Not commuting probably helps.
Manual gearboxes are a thing of the past, mordern auto are way better in almost every way, lets face it , most driving is either sitting in traffic or on a motorway, in no way would a auto not be a better choice.
They used to be rubbish, but tech has moved on, Even F1 cars are auto now, well you have to pull a paddle , but effectively auto.
Personally in a classic, then yes, part of the driving experience, Lets not forget tho most classics are pretty crap actual cars tho compared to new stuff. but as a daily, auto all the way.
I got to drive a aston DB5 a few years ago, It made me smile like no other car ever has, but as an actual car it was awful. Didnt handle well, not very quick, noisy , not that comfy, heater didnt work well etc, would i have on, yes in a heart beat. but i would have another car for daily use.
Thats how i see manuals.
They used to be rubbish, but tech has moved on, Even F1 cars are auto now, well you have to pull a paddle , but effectively auto.
Personally in a classic, then yes, part of the driving experience, Lets not forget tho most classics are pretty crap actual cars tho compared to new stuff. but as a daily, auto all the way.
I got to drive a aston DB5 a few years ago, It made me smile like no other car ever has, but as an actual car it was awful. Didnt handle well, not very quick, noisy , not that comfy, heater didnt work well etc, would i have on, yes in a heart beat. but i would have another car for daily use.
Thats how i see manuals.
Regarding that article, I think 2029 is pretty optimistic for their extinction. With the ZEV Mandate targets as they are,I reckon manual sales for new cars will be well under 10% by 2025, under 5% by 2026 and under 2% by 2027. It will really only be very niche and specialist cars available as manuals by that point.
That transition to autos has been happening for a while now. Looking on autotrader, 2017 was when auto became more popular than manual. 80% of 2023 cars available are autos. So I wouldn’t expect manual values to increase as there has been such a decline in their popularity over a prolonged period, so clearly, fewer people want them.
That transition to autos has been happening for a while now. Looking on autotrader, 2017 was when auto became more popular than manual. 80% of 2023 cars available are autos. So I wouldn’t expect manual values to increase as there has been such a decline in their popularity over a prolonged period, so clearly, fewer people want them.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Manuals are slow, thirsty, a pain in heavy traffic (which is only going to get heavier) and need replacement clutches and stuff.
My XF is currently having the gearbox electronics replaced at great expense & delay having been problematic for months.. My manual cars don't have such & are all working just fine.richhead said:
... lets face it , most driving is either sitting in traffic or on a motorway, in no way would a auto not be a better choice.
That may be the case for you (and I agree auto is generally better for those situations), but it would be foolish to assume everyone has such a miserable driving environment. Though obviously it is more common as more people live in cities.It's the opposite for me, and I much prefer a manual for my use.
Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 8th May 00:04
GravelBen said:
richhead said:
... lets face it , most driving is either sitting in traffic or on a motorway, in no way would a auto not be a better choice.
That may be the case for you (and I agree auto is generally better for those situations), but it would be foolish to assume everyone has such a miserable driving environment.It's the opposite for me, and I much prefer a manual for my use.
I cant see any advantage to a manual in 99.9% of road driving situations really.
richhead said:
Why tho, most autos have paddles, so you can control the gears if you want. I agree that with a classic, its part of the experience. Ive not seen many modern race cars with a manual box, auto or auto manual are way faster and less likely to get the wrong gear etc.
I cant see any advantage to a manual in 99.9% of road driving situations really.
In most autos I've driven there is still a noticeable delay in response which bugs me - you accelerate or tell it to change gear, wait a moment or two while it thinks about life and decides if it is going to do it or not, and then it responds after that. Or decides it knows better and doesn't do what you want after all.I cant see any advantage to a manual in 99.9% of road driving situations really.
I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
GravelBen said:
In most autos I've driven there is still a noticeable delay in response which bugs me - you accelerate or tell it to change gear, wait a moment or two while it thinks about life and decides if it is going to do it or not, and then it responds after that. Or decides it knows better and doesn't do what you want after all.
I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
ok thats fair enough, maybe try a dsg or similar, and yes most motorsport ones are basically a manual thats automated, but i think thats kind of what dsg boxes are, not driven one tho so cant comment.I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
i did have a honda accord auto that had paddles and it was a slush box, but the gear changes were instant, well faster than a manual..
Geffg said:
Probably be another 30yrs for vans to ditch manual.
Vans seem to be so far behind cars in tech. I couldn’t believe when one of our vans was off the road and a hire van got dropped off, was a new vauxhall vivaro and didn’t have ac, parking sensors and just a big standard display for the radio Even the transits come in pauper spec for most of them, no electric mirrors etc, which between those 2 vans mentioned I’m not sure any car doesn’t have those things now.
I remember I got a new caddy off work in 2015 and it had windy windows! When the kids seen it they wondered how you opened the windows!
I would imagine the fleet buyers wouldn’t want leccy mirrors on vans due to cost .Vans seem to be so far behind cars in tech. I couldn’t believe when one of our vans was off the road and a hire van got dropped off, was a new vauxhall vivaro and didn’t have ac, parking sensors and just a big standard display for the radio Even the transits come in pauper spec for most of them, no electric mirrors etc, which between those 2 vans mentioned I’m not sure any car doesn’t have those things now.
I remember I got a new caddy off work in 2015 and it had windy windows! When the kids seen it they wondered how you opened the windows!
richhead said:
GravelBen said:
In most autos I've driven there is still a noticeable delay in response which bugs me - you accelerate or tell it to change gear, wait a moment or two while it thinks about life and decides if it is going to do it or not, and then it responds after that. Or decides it knows better and doesn't do what you want after all.
I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
ok thats fair enough, maybe try a dsg or similar, and yes most motorsport ones are basically a manual thats automated, but i think thats kind of what dsg boxes are, not driven one tho so cant comment.I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
i did have a honda accord auto that had paddles and it was a slush box, but the gear changes were instant, well faster than a manual..
For perspective most of my driving is small town or twisty hilly country roads, lots of gravel roads too and a bit of off-road stuff. My nearest 'motorway' (I use that term loosely, its still only 2 lanes each way) is 1.5 hours drive away. Obviously a different situation to a city dweller!
My daily drive is a Hilux, I just ordered a new one and had to choose between auto and manual, test drove the auto and that confirmed that I still prefer manuals so I ordered manual. Interestingly a new manual Hilux has better efficiency figures than the auto, though the auto does have more torque too.
Long term I think manufacturers will gradually push further away from manual, as its easier for them to integrate some driver aids and hybrid systems etc with autos. So I may as well enjoy manuals while I still have the option.
GravelBen said:
richhead said:
Why tho, most autos have paddles, so you can control the gears if you want. I agree that with a classic, its part of the experience. Ive not seen many modern race cars with a manual box, auto or auto manual are way faster and less likely to get the wrong gear etc.
I cant see any advantage to a manual in 99.9% of road driving situations really.
In most autos I've driven there is still a noticeable delay in response which bugs me - you accelerate or tell it to change gear, wait a moment or two while it thinks about life and decides if it is going to do it or not, and then it responds after that. Or decides it knows better and doesn't do what you want after all.I cant see any advantage to a manual in 99.9% of road driving situations really.
I much prefer the direct connection, response and control of a manual drivetrain than the delayed slurring response of an auto - its more about the feel than anything else.
The motorsport examples you are thinking of are typically sequential manual boxes, definitely not torque converter or CVT autos!
te and this is the ZF8 that everyone raves about.I've a DSG box in some Seat tormentor thing and it's useless when you need to move off briskly. Someone flashes you out of a junction and you just sit there looking apologetically at them whilst the gearbox puts down it's paper and cup of tea and remembers it's supposed to be doing something. Then the relatively puny 1.5l engine does its trick of dumping all the torque in a big blob to make you think it's more powerful than the 150hp it really is, meaning the front tyres get beaten like a ginger step kid. That's if the irrational stop start system hasn't decided this is the perfect moment to save the planet by taking a brief and unexpected pause.
Mr Tidy said:
That depends on the car TBF.
Have a look at E-Type and Aston Martin DB4/5/6 values. Autos are far less desirable!
Very true... I had a 1982 Vantage that was manual, the autos are not well regarded in comparison. Have a look at E-Type and Aston Martin DB4/5/6 values. Autos are far less desirable!
An auto for a daily driver would always be my preference though - particularly when commuting into London.
Forester1965 said:
I've a DSG box in some Seat tormentor thing and it's useless when you need to move off briskly. Someone flashes you out of a junction and you just sit there looking apologetically at them whilst the gearbox puts down it's paper and cup of tea and remembers it's supposed to be doing something. Then the relatively puny 1.5l engine does its trick of dumping all the torque in a big blob to make you think it's more powerful than the 150hp it really is, meaning the front tyres get beaten like a ginger step kid. That's if the irrational stop start system hasn't decided this is the perfect moment to save the planet by taking a brief and unexpected pause.
You can get a map for that.Dsg is easy to get mapped but the ZF8 tiptronic less so. I asked my insurers about a gearbox TCU remap and the response was they treat the engine and gearbox as a single unit so a mod to either meant they wouldn't insure it.
kambites said:
Nomme de Plum said:
This seems rather UK centric. Stick shift in the USA has largely been ignored for a long time. Even in the 90s when I lived there.
Autos are now much more efficient and people generally accept they are more convenient.
More Euro-centric, I think; generally speaking other European countries have always had pretty similar car buying habits to us. I'm not sure which, if any of them, have automatic-only driving licences like the UK though. Autos are now much more efficient and people generally accept they are more convenient.
My pals 2008 BMW 6 series was a surprise that it was manual. Not sure that was an option in the U.K.? Big 4x4’s like X5’s and Merc MLs usually manual there which seems an odd choice for such a car but very much the norm rather than the exception.
EVs don’t need gearboxes so yes, manuals are going to go extinct. Not within my lifetime though.
I think it has been a few years since I drove a car with a gearbox. If I was buying a fun, old car I would have one. My motorbike is still manual of course (but even there it has a quickshifter).
I think it has been a few years since I drove a car with a gearbox. If I was buying a fun, old car I would have one. My motorbike is still manual of course (but even there it has a quickshifter).
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