EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
740EVTORQUES said:
Would an extra 15 minutes to charge be the end of the world?
It is not an extra 15 minutes though. Stopping at a service station adds at least another 15 minutes on top of that so is closer to 30 minutes. You have time leaving motorway, finding a parking spot, getting yourself sorted and then rejoining the motorway.braddo said:
That would add up to 1 hour per year.
Compared to the multiple hours per year spent at petrol stations versus plugging an EV in at home (+ 1 hour for occasional long trips in a year). With lower running costs and better reliability, it should be plain to see how EVs can fit easily into the daily lives of many millions of UK households.
The point is not that EVs are perfect for Bricktop nor perfect for every single person in the UK.
I always love how EVangelists always spout lower running costs without taking into account the money lost on depreciation. Compared to the multiple hours per year spent at petrol stations versus plugging an EV in at home (+ 1 hour for occasional long trips in a year). With lower running costs and better reliability, it should be plain to see how EVs can fit easily into the daily lives of many millions of UK households.
The point is not that EVs are perfect for Bricktop nor perfect for every single person in the UK.
Newc said:
Ford quoted in the FT below. Want to make good returns for the next ten years? Buy all the 2025-2030 1.0l shopping trolley factory build slots you can, then wait for the overs offers to come rolling in.
https://www.ft.com/content/ff0f3966-0565-434b-81a7...
Ford is prepared to restrict the sale of petrol models in the UK in order to hit the country’s stretching EV targets, a move that is likely to push up prices for consumers, its European boss has warned.
He told a Financial Times summit that weak sales meant the company’s only option to avoid crippling fines under the UK’s new EV quota rules was to divert sales to other countries.
“We can’t push EVs into the market against demand. We’re not going to pay penalties. We are not going to sell EVs at huge losses just to buy compliance. The only alternative is to redirect ICE vehicles from the UK and sell them somewhere else.”
The industry will have to reduce the amount of cars they sell to hit the 22% EV gate to an overall market size of 1.4 million cars, next year that will have to be 1.1 million to hit the 28% if adoption rates stay where they have been at 16% it'll get worse from there.. https://www.ft.com/content/ff0f3966-0565-434b-81a7...
Ford is prepared to restrict the sale of petrol models in the UK in order to hit the country’s stretching EV targets, a move that is likely to push up prices for consumers, its European boss has warned.
He told a Financial Times summit that weak sales meant the company’s only option to avoid crippling fines under the UK’s new EV quota rules was to divert sales to other countries.
“We can’t push EVs into the market against demand. We’re not going to pay penalties. We are not going to sell EVs at huge losses just to buy compliance. The only alternative is to redirect ICE vehicles from the UK and sell them somewhere else.”
That will give us a new car market that has collapsed from 3 million cars to just over 1 million since 2019, it's a a bit of an issue if something isn't done to resolve it.
.
Olivera said:
braddo said:
And I'm interested to read if Olivera needs that range if he were able to just plug his car in at home overnight whenever he needed to.
A range potentially twice that of an EV is certainly a worthwhile consideration when weighing up pros and cons. It opens up, if one is so inclined, to jump in and go anywhere without nerdish planning.BricktopST205 said:
I always love how EVangelists always spout lower running costs without taking into account the money lost on depreciation.
They're 'owners' not 'EVangelists'. And, unlike you, they have owned both ICE and EV - I own both.In my case I have already saved around £25k in petrol, servicing and VED in the 4 years I've owned an EV against the V8 it replaced as a daily driver. I have also saved an additional £20k in tax. The car cost £50k and is still 'as new' with an immeasurably small battery degradation. I am not sure depreciation is any concern at all.
I was bored one afternoon and thought I'd create a spreadsheet to accurately plot the costs of both using .22p kwh and £1.50 petrol.
BricktopST205 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Would an extra 15 minutes to charge be the end of the world?
It is not an extra 15 minutes though. Stopping at a service station adds at least another 15 minutes on top of that so is closer to 30 minutes. You have time leaving motorway, finding a parking spot, getting yourself sorted and then rejoining the motorway.Drive off road to charger
Park
Plug in
Tap card on charger screen
Walk about a bit, checking emails etc, or go to the loo
Unplug car
Drive off
The time additional to the actual charge time is maybe a minute, no more
What is the ‘getting yourself sorted’ activity I’m missing out on?
PS did a 6 hour/ 350 mile drive yesterday.
Needed 3 stops, and that felt like the minimum for safety.
Only one of those was for fuel. There were empty DC chargers at the services every time
So an EV with a 200 mike range would not have delayed me.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 8th May 07:23
just to add a bit of dirty fossil fuel to the fire there's some interesting work going on with electric trucks.
all the people who test them seem to love the way they drive. i remember only a few short years ago reading that there was no way a BEV platform could be suitable for trucks.
all the people who test them seem to love the way they drive. i remember only a few short years ago reading that there was no way a BEV platform could be suitable for trucks.
Wills2 said:
The industry will have to reduce the amount of cars they sell to hit the 22% EV gate to an overall market size of 1.4 million cars, next year that will have to be 1.1 million to hit the 28% if adoption rates stay where they have been at 16% it'll get worse from there..
That will give us a new car market that has collapsed from 3 million cars to just over 1 million since 2019, it's a a bit of an issue if something isn't done to resolve it.
Yep. Huge price inflation blip for new ICE, caused by supply shortages, just like we saw in Covid. And also just like Covid, the prices will roll down into used supply and we'll see three and four year old Yaris's going for more than they cost new. That will give us a new car market that has collapsed from 3 million cars to just over 1 million since 2019, it's a a bit of an issue if something isn't done to resolve it.
BricktopST205 said:
braddo said:
That would add up to 1 hour per year.
Compared to the multiple hours per year spent at petrol stations versus plugging an EV in at home (+ 1 hour for occasional long trips in a year). With lower running costs and better reliability, it should be plain to see how EVs can fit easily into the daily lives of many millions of UK households.
The point is not that EVs are perfect for Bricktop nor perfect for every single person in the UK.
I always love how EVangelists always spout lower running costs without taking into account the money lost on depreciation. Compared to the multiple hours per year spent at petrol stations versus plugging an EV in at home (+ 1 hour for occasional long trips in a year). With lower running costs and better reliability, it should be plain to see how EVs can fit easily into the daily lives of many millions of UK households.
The point is not that EVs are perfect for Bricktop nor perfect for every single person in the UK.
They are just way cheaper to fuel.
Fastlane said:
DonkeyApple said:
Let's be fair though. The sort of person who saves up £50k is going to be the sort of person who just doesn't make those mistakes and is already aware that these numbers are extremely hopeful.
The trouble is you don't need to save up £50k - you can lease one for well under £400/month, which opens them up to people who may not be used to researching WLTP range, or much else. For example, here is an actual question from one of the UK Nissan Aryia Facebook groups:"Are you able to sit in the car whilst it charges? If so, how do you do this?"
That said, it's still an imaginary scenario as the sort of person who prudently accumulates £50k over a period of time isn't going to then piss it away on an ID7!!! A car that is going to half in value inside of 2-3 years, where the dealer is going to use an artificial RRP to overcharge you for not taking their comedy junk rate credit from VW Finance. Even if a company offers a discounted credit rate a person who is a saver isn't going to fall for that trick as they'll automatically realise that the premium that's come off the house credit has been spanked on somewhere else, same with not falling for the deposit contribution trick. That only works on spenders as faux cash backs and discounted credit rates are catnip to them but repellents to savers.
No one who has the brains and the ability to save up £50k is ever going to find themselves facing the consumer spankings of the everyday pro shopper.
No one is even going to buy one of these privately anyway, whether using money, third party credit or taking a spanking on comedy junk rates from VW. It's a big VW saloon sort of thing so clearly aimed at businesses that need a car to allow middle management to look superior to junior when playing the company car game.
Surely the only person in the U.K. who would be using one of these is someone like a John Lewis branch manager or department head who has earned their spurs down in the Toyota pool but now deserves to escape those losers and be rocking up in something that screams 'winner'?
The issue Which has is that they're going to typically be pitching the motability end of the market, your mid sized, Asian crossovers that sort of thing but to private buyers who don't get the big BIK savings so post them introduction of the BIK discount they shouldn't be promoting EVs as an affordable solution anyway. Add in the spike in fuelling costs and it would be nigh on impossible to be legitimately pitching new EVs to people on fixed budgets who can't take advantage of the major tax savings. Someone who did that should be shot to be honest. New EVs are very much a company car play while that tax break is open. But used EV values have broken free of the manufacturer's ability to artificially manipulate them higher to support the PCP formula on new sales and used EVs are just about the only cars in the U.K. where their price is being set by the consumer (and instead of celebrating that emergence of a free market in a market so heavily manipulated by the manufacturers and the tied credit services, some are actually mocking it which does seem unbelievably dim!!). Anyway, used EVs are beginning to look like far superior value to certain consumers over ICE but Which can't pitch used, only new kit.
740EVTORQUES said:
When I do fast charges on long trips it goes like this:
Drive off road to charger
Park
Plug in
Tap card on charger screen
Walk about a bit, checking emails etc, or go to the loo
Unplug car
Drive off
The time additional to the actual charge time is maybe a minute, no more
What is the ‘getting yourself sorted’ activity I’m missing out on?
As someone who uses services on a daily basis it really isn't as the vast majority of services are off the beaten path so to speak. Peterborough, Stansted, Cambridge, South Mimms, Thurrock etc etc. Drive off road to charger
Park
Plug in
Tap card on charger screen
Walk about a bit, checking emails etc, or go to the loo
Unplug car
Drive off
The time additional to the actual charge time is maybe a minute, no more
What is the ‘getting yourself sorted’ activity I’m missing out on?
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Wednesday 8th May 07:23
By the time you have left the motorway and got yourself parked up it is a good 5 minutes of deviation from your route. The same rejoining the motorway. Especially if you have traffic lights etc.
You do have a couple of well designed ones for example Knutsford M6 near Stoke or Forest East on the M1 near Leicester but the vast majority of the big ones are all way off the beaten path.
We could debate this till the end of days but the fact is in the current world ICE cars do not suffer from this "having to stop" and waste time. People also cannot except that maybe others have a bit more grit about them and can drive longer distances either.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Wednesday 8th May 08:14
braddo said:
You're a truck driver who is used to long driving stints. You are not remotely representative of the UK population, for whom a 4 hour drive with a 5 minute break is fking stupid.
And I'm interested to read if Olivera needs that range if he were able to just plug his car in at home overnight whenever he needed to.
I do 4 hour drives with no stops regularly. It’s not stupid or difficult or even remotely unusual.And I'm interested to read if Olivera needs that range if he were able to just plug his car in at home overnight whenever he needed to.
It’s not a barrier to EV ownership either as there are so many that can easily do a 4 hour stretch without a recharge.
I’m still baffled at some people’s lifestyles where they never seem to go anywhere more than a few miles from their home.
BricktopST205 said:
As someone who uses services on a daily basis it really isn't as the vast majority of services are off the beaten path so to speak. Peterborough, Stansted, Cambridge, South Mimms, Thurrock etc etc.
By the time you have left the motorway and got yourself parked up it is a good 5 minutes of deviation from your route. The same rejoining the motorway. Especially if you have traffic lights etc.
You do have a couple of well designed ones for example Knutsford M6 near Stoke or Forest East on the M1 near Leicester but the vast majority of the big ones are all way off the beaten path.
We could debate this till the end of days but the fact is in the current world ICE cars do not suffer from this "having to stop" and waste time. People also cannot except that maybe others have a bit more grit about them and can drive longer distances either.
There are loads right next to the motorways I use. M40 > M6. The improvement over the last 4 years has been excellent.By the time you have left the motorway and got yourself parked up it is a good 5 minutes of deviation from your route. The same rejoining the motorway. Especially if you have traffic lights etc.
You do have a couple of well designed ones for example Knutsford M6 near Stoke or Forest East on the M1 near Leicester but the vast majority of the big ones are all way off the beaten path.
We could debate this till the end of days but the fact is in the current world ICE cars do not suffer from this "having to stop" and waste time. People also cannot except that maybe others have a bit more grit about them and can drive longer distances either.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Wednesday 8th May 08:14
BricktopST205 said:
As someone who uses services on a daily basis it really isn't as the vast majority of services are off the beaten path so to speak. Peterborough, Stansted, Cambridge, South Mimms, Thurrock etc etc.
By the time you have left the motorway and got yourself parked up it is a good 5 minutes of deviation from your route. The same rejoining the motorway. Especially if you have traffic lights etc.
You do have a couple of well designed ones for example Knutsford M6 near Stoke or Forest East on the M1 near Leicester but the vast majority of the big ones are all way off the beaten path.
We could debate this till the end of days but the fact is in the current world ICE cars do not suffer from this "having to stop" and waste time. People also cannot except that maybe others have a bit more grit about them and can drive longer distances either.
How may of those cars that cause the 5 minute delay are EVs?By the time you have left the motorway and got yourself parked up it is a good 5 minutes of deviation from your route. The same rejoining the motorway. Especially if you have traffic lights etc.
You do have a couple of well designed ones for example Knutsford M6 near Stoke or Forest East on the M1 near Leicester but the vast majority of the big ones are all way off the beaten path.
We could debate this till the end of days but the fact is in the current world ICE cars do not suffer from this "having to stop" and waste time. People also cannot except that maybe others have a bit more grit about them and can drive longer distances either.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Wednesday 8th May 08:14
i.e. there's "Having to stop" and "You are stopping anyway"
Newc said:
Ford quoted in the FT below. Want to make good returns for the next ten years? Buy all the 2025-2030 1.0l shopping trolley factory build slots you can, then wait for the overs offers to come rolling in.
https://www.ft.com/content/ff0f3966-0565-434b-81a7...
Ford is prepared to restrict the sale of petrol models in the UK in order to hit the country’s stretching EV targets, a move that is likely to push up prices for consumers, its European boss has warned.
He told a Financial Times summit that weak sales meant the company’s only option to avoid crippling fines under the UK’s new EV quota rules was to divert sales to other countries.
“We can’t push EVs into the market against demand. We’re not going to pay penalties. We are not going to sell EVs at huge losses just to buy compliance. The only alternative is to redirect ICE vehicles from the UK and sell them somewhere else.”
Ford is screwed in the U.K. Its product range and brand sits firmly among the section of society that not only doesn't need an EV but where using one isn't going to begin to start making sense for over a decade. https://www.ft.com/content/ff0f3966-0565-434b-81a7...
Ford is prepared to restrict the sale of petrol models in the UK in order to hit the country’s stretching EV targets, a move that is likely to push up prices for consumers, its European boss has warned.
He told a Financial Times summit that weak sales meant the company’s only option to avoid crippling fines under the UK’s new EV quota rules was to divert sales to other countries.
“We can’t push EVs into the market against demand. We’re not going to pay penalties. We are not going to sell EVs at huge losses just to buy compliance. The only alternative is to redirect ICE vehicles from the UK and sell them somewhere else.”
Where is Ford going to find EV buyers? Higher income, employed individuals who have driveways and vehicle usage scenarios that work for EVs? That's not a Ford demographic. Ford is young people starting out, old people needing to be frugal, families on a budget. Ford's demographic is the precice group that EVs are categorically not aimed at but are being left well alone to switch years from now.
And Ford's solution is to sell fewer ICE. Well, at that they're going to win big, like proper big because Ford is gone from the U.K. with that tactic.
So, err, bye bye Ford cars I guess. What a catastrophic and devastating blow to the U.K.!!! Oh wait, it's of absolutely no relevance at all, just a culling of the weak. And it's not as if Ford can go all whingy as surely being God fearing Capitalists they understand how that all works.
It's what the good Lord would want.
Now, Renault. They sell cheap cars to people on a budget and their core demographic is the precise group of Britons who have absolutely no need to be wasting a moment of their time, let alone money fannying about with EVs. Same core market as Ford and yet Renault are selling EVs and actually doing a good job of it. Renault seem very likely to not be overly troubled by the ZEV Mandate.
So it's not the nasty gubberment but Ford's long term U.K. management. All losers who watched this coming decades out and decided to not do anything about it only to end up at the 11th hour whinging about how the dog has eaten their homework or they had to go to their granny's funeral for the 8th time.
The simple truth is that Ford are losers. They installed loser management and ran a loser business plan and customers don't want to pay hard earned money to be linked to losers and Ford is making itself a loser brand. It's perfectly capable of competing with the others but they need to ditch the losers first.
LivLL said:
I’m still baffled at some people’s lifestyles where they never seem to go anywhere more than a few miles from their home.
Most people don't just drive a few miles from home, many people have 20-30 mile commutes each way. They visit family 50 miles away etc.My Wife does 10-12k miles a year in here diesel, I reckon she could do 95% of those in an EV without even worrying about range as the longest regular journey she does is 50 miles each way.
For the other 5% we have an ICE car which is likely a weekend trip away or a trip to a theme park somewhere etc.
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