Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[pquinn]

Have a read of some of this stuff https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/ and tell me it's really all about pay.

The 35% demand is just a comedy cherry on top to stir things up a bit more.

[julian64]

pquinn said:

Have a read of some of this stuff https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/ and tell me it's really all about pay.

The 35% demand is just a comedy cherry on top to stir things up a bit more.

Read it, and can't see what you're getting at. It looks like pay is the problem from that thread

[Countdown]

blueg33 said:

Tricky. I pay a 27 year old land manager £75k plus bonus that adds up to another £30k as that is the going rate in my industry. To get to that salary a land manager has done 4 years at uni and 3 years experience.

A doctor has to study longer and will earn half of the amount my land managers earn.

I think young doctors probably need paying more, but the rate of increase should tail off.

I think your company might be an outlier. I work at a Housing Association and our Land managers are on less, even with more experience. Admittedly it's quasi-Public Sector but even adjusting for that I think the salaries you're quoting are on the high side.

https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/land-manager-...

[loafer123]

Dixy said:

I am too thick to be a doctor but do have horses in this race.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like st and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.
In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.

Where did you get the data that there were only 700 F2's retained by the NHS? That goes against all logic and stats that I can find.

[Murph7355]

skwdenyer said:

I fear you're conflating some Drs with all Drs in this thinking.

If you want to see what happens if we don't sort this out, go and try to get NHS dental care. Oh, oops...

And let's also ask Govt why there's an artificial limit places on medical training places.

I'm assuming those who want least-cost NHS Drs all have private health insurance?

Govts need to explain this st honestly to the electorate. Pay more tax/do without other services or you will not get these services eventually.

And we as an electorate need to wake up and smell the coffee rather than having to have this stuff spoon fed.

[s1962a]

Are the same people that don't want to put their hands in their (tax) pockets to pay our doctors more, the same ones that will be shouting and crying when they or their loved ones can't get medical attention due to a shortage?

Or maybe we prefer our home grown doctors going to other countries to earn more money, and we import ours from 3rd world countries and drain them of their medical resources?

Personally I think we should increase our taxes and pay doctors enough that they dont see going abroad as a much better option.

[272BHP]

Pay can't be that bad.

The budget last month had to give doctors tax breaks to stop them retiring early on 60k a year pensions.

[Iamnotkloot]

ChocolateFrog said:

Went for 10-19. Around 15 feels about right, above inflation, more than the vast majority will get.

35% is faintly ridiculous and weakens their negotiating position IMO.

I went for this figure too - it seems a lot, but they've been paid under inflation before so some catching up required.

[pork911]

s1962a said:

Are the same people that don't want to put their hands in their (tax) pockets to pay our doctors more, the same ones that will be shouting and crying when they or their loved ones can't get medical attention due to a shortage?

Or maybe we prefer our home grown doctors going to other countries to earn more money, and we import ours from 3rd world countries and drain them of their medical resources?

Personally I think we should increase our taxes and pay doctors enough that they dont see going abroad as a much better option.

Sure. Which tax funded workers are getting what increases and what taxes are rising by how much to pay for this and how often will this all continue to rise at what rate?

[skwdenyer]

irc said:

CrgT16 said:

One issue is that the hours worked are not set in stone due to the nature of the work.

That’s why they end up saying £14/h that’s only because they can be doing many more hours than they are in theory contracted to.

As far as I know they get paid for more or less every hour they work.

The £14 is a first year out of university doctor. As I quoted above £59k plus overtime after 5 years.

Many jobs pay low wages for a couple of year because in reality you are still training and are not as valuable as a member of staff with more experience.

I think being in the top 15% of workers 5 years out of university is ok.

If they are arguing the starting salary is too low that is another argument.

£14 ph? So the cleaners are getting the same as their first year salary? I can't imagine what they're complaining about...

[skwdenyer]

272BHP said:

Pay can't be that bad.

The budget last month had to give doctors tax breaks to stop them retiring early on 60k a year pensions.

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

[272BHP]

skwdenyer said:

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

But junior doctors do not stay junior forever. They either become consultants or GP's or whatever at some point.

They will all finish on salaries and pensions that many could never dream of - they just have to learn their job first.

[ukwill]

I can’t believe that 8% selected Full 35%

Presumably the cost of living crisis is over and the great British taxpayer is once again flush.

35% … WTAF.

[ConnectionError]

ukwill said:

I can’t believe that 8% selected Full 35%

Presumably the cost of living crisis is over and the great British taxpayer is once again flush.

35% … WTAF.

the 8% are probably junior doctors!

[i4got]

skwdenyer said:

272BHP said:

Pay can't be that bad.

The budget last month had to give doctors tax breaks to stop them retiring early on 60k a year pensions.

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

The only inequality is that doctors reach the pension life time allowance so much earlier in their career than most other workers. It's the same LTA for all - doesn't get much more equal than that. Now changing the LTA just for doctors as Labour suggested, allowing then to have an even larger pension than most - that would have been a gross inequality.

[Downward]

272BHP said:

skwdenyer said:

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

But junior doctors do not stay junior forever. They either become consultants or GP's or whatever at some point.

They will all finish on salaries and pensions that many could never dream of - they just have to learn their job first.

Sounds like a lot of Public sector workers.
Wonder how many NHS non clinical staff are paid over £60k PA

[super7]

Give them the full 35%...... give the nurses it as well..... and all the Civil servants. They all believe they're entitled to it.... Then increase EVERYONE's NI by 10% to pay for it......

The Junior Doctors have not missed out on a 35% increase in their wages..... when they went into Med School, they knew what the salary was. They knew what the hour's were. That's where their starting point is, not basing it on a level starting 15 years ago. They think they're something special because they're a Dr and work in the NHS where everyone claps them. Well according to the placards they now think the claps are worthless and your'e appreciation is worthless.

A Junior doctor on the £14ph level can't fart without permission from a senior doctor, they are still trainee's. You don't leave accounting school and jump into the top paid job, you have to learn the real world... you get paid as such when you start your first job at the bottom.....

For what it's worth I haven't had a pay rise for 15 odd years either, my standard of living has been decimated by tax increases. I have no sympathy for them.

[skwdenyer]

i4got said:

skwdenyer said:

272BHP said:

Pay can't be that bad.

The budget last month had to give doctors tax breaks to stop them retiring early on 60k a year pensions.

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

The only inequality is that doctors reach the pension life time allowance so much earlier in their career than most other workers. It's the same LTA for all - doesn't get much more equal than that. Now changing the LTA just for doctors as Labour suggested, allowing then to have an even larger pension than most - that would have been a gross inequality.

The LTA is an aberration. There’s nothing especially problematic about a larger pension; after all, that money will be taxed as income as it is paid out. Tax relief contributes to a bigger pot and larger tax receipts.

If there is some sort of avoidance going on, fix that. But it is hard to see what the apparent terrible problem is with larger pensions.

[skwdenyer]

super7 said:

Give them the full 35%...... give the nurses it as well..... and all the Civil servants. They all believe they're entitled to it.... Then increase EVERYONE's NI by 10% to pay for it......

The Junior Doctors have not missed out on a 35% increase in their wages..... when they went into Med School, they knew what the salary was. They knew what the hour's were. That's where their starting point is, not basing it on a level starting 15 years ago. They think they're something special because they're a Dr and work in the NHS where everyone claps them. Well according to the placards they now think the claps are worthless and your'e appreciation is worthless.

A Junior doctor on the £14ph level can't fart without permission from a senior doctor, they are still trainee's. You don't leave accounting school and jump into the top paid job, you have to learn the real world... you get paid as such when you start your first job at the bottom.....

For what it's worth I haven't had a pay rise for 15 odd years either, my standard of living has been decimated by tax increases. I have no sympathy for them.

Do you have any idea what starting salaries in many of the professions are these days?

[i4got]

skwdenyer said:

i4got said:

skwdenyer said:

272BHP said:

Pay can't be that bad.

The budget last month had to give doctors tax breaks to stop them retiring early on 60k a year pensions.

The ones nearing retirement aren't junior doctors. They've had very different pay, conditions and pensions.

The problem isn't even necessarily about money with those senior Drs; it is about the fundamental inequity of a tax and pension system that, in effect, levies a >100% marginal tax rate on income, at a time when we have a shortage of people in that age bracket working.

Realpolitik =/= knee-jerk dogma

The only inequality is that doctors reach the pension life time allowance so much earlier in their career than most other workers. It's the same LTA for all - doesn't get much more equal than that. Now changing the LTA just for doctors as Labour suggested, allowing then to have an even larger pension than most - that would have been a gross inequality.

The LTA is an aberration. There’s nothing especially problematic about a larger pension; after all, that money will be taxed as income as it is paid out. Tax relief contributes to a bigger pot and larger tax receipts.

If there is some sort of avoidance going on, fix that. But it is hard to see what the apparent terrible problem is with larger pensions.

No problems with larger pensions. You point about the inequality for doctors around the LTA was my issue.