Starting Sailing
Discussion
rugbyleague said:
I've just returned from a weeks sailing in Greece and I loved it despite being quite inexperienced.
4 of us went with Sunsail out of Athens sailed 250 miles on a 45ft yacht (a Beneteau built for Sunsail I think). There was a lot of wind so we only used 40 litres of diesel over 6 days.
My friend and his wife who went with us have their own Yacht on the Menai in Wales so importantly have licences and experience.
We had the best time ever and I'm keen to learn more and get more involved with sailing.
I've sailed a little as a youngster, did 3 trips around Anglesey last year, a week in Greece last week and over the Summer I'm with my friend in Scotland for a few days aswell as helping him to bring his boat back to Wales from Scotland. In addition I have a few opportunities to crew in some yacht club races in Morecambe Bay over summer which is close to where I live.
I'm considering doing Day Skipper Practical and Theory and then VHF radio because its the bigger boats that interest me, recognising a lot have advised learning in a Dinghy (which is also possible for me because I live 15mins away from Lake Windermere).
How do you choose where to learn? Is the theory better online or Face to Face?
It depends what you want and how you like to learn.4 of us went with Sunsail out of Athens sailed 250 miles on a 45ft yacht (a Beneteau built for Sunsail I think). There was a lot of wind so we only used 40 litres of diesel over 6 days.
My friend and his wife who went with us have their own Yacht on the Menai in Wales so importantly have licences and experience.
We had the best time ever and I'm keen to learn more and get more involved with sailing.
I've sailed a little as a youngster, did 3 trips around Anglesey last year, a week in Greece last week and over the Summer I'm with my friend in Scotland for a few days aswell as helping him to bring his boat back to Wales from Scotland. In addition I have a few opportunities to crew in some yacht club races in Morecambe Bay over summer which is close to where I live.
I'm considering doing Day Skipper Practical and Theory and then VHF radio because its the bigger boats that interest me, recognising a lot have advised learning in a Dinghy (which is also possible for me because I live 15mins away from Lake Windermere).
How do you choose where to learn? Is the theory better online or Face to Face?
You can learn all the theory for free, from books in your local library.
If that works for you.
You have access to doing some real-life miles and experience.
You ahve access to friends who can help you with anything you don't understand.
Some people enjoy doing lots of the courses up the ladder from from Dazed Kipper to Yotmeister.
Others just do the minimum they need to e.g. charter a boat in Greece.
Others make YM Offshore their goal and do what courses they need, in conjunction with sailing outsde of courses.
Some mix any of the above with owning their own boat.
You don't have to do every step on the 'shorebased' and 'practical' ladders, many people jump in at the higher levels with a view to instructing.
Read the 'assumed knowledge' in the syllabus on the RYA website.
Personally I would say consider doing the YM Offshore theory, it's not ever so hard if you can grasp basic vectors in maths, nuthin' fancy, just knowing what they mean and adding them up by drawing them.
I've heard online YM is a bit variable but you'll be fine if you can access other sources, buy the odd book and talk stuff through with a friend.
Some people do the theory as a 1 week block inthe classroom, this does not work for everyone, some people benefit from time out to read around the subject, talk through it with friends etc Equally many weeks of nightschool has its drawbacks.
F2F in the classroom can be a wind-up, there will be someone who is slow to grasp certain bits and takes up lots of teacher time.
Some people seem to get trained to pass the exam, but don't really understand WTF it all means, or how it relates to the grubby reality of a wet boat at nightt.
There is no need to use the same school for any of it. It's a common syllabus scheme. Lots of the instructors are freelance and work for various schools.
Beware of some older books and very old gits who pre-date the inclusion of GPS/electronic charts in the scheme. You still need to handle the 'old skool' stuff though.
The theory willmake much more sense if you can put in in practice on the water.
But you will find that many boaters don't do terribly much theory in day to day sailing.
Basically, I can get anywhere I went last year without looking at a chart, and I've got Navionics on my phone.
But if things get difficult, I can do the theory etc and know the rules and all that.
Dinghy sailing, particularly racing, may make you a better sailor, but squeezing the last few % out of a cruising yacht is rarely important.
I've known talented dinghy racers be a danger and a menace on bigger boats!
I like to sail my boat well, there is a spectrum through to people who are happy motoring everywhere and might unroll a sail if the wind suits.
OutInTheShed said:
It depends what you want and how you like to learn.
You can learn all the theory for free, from books in your local library.
If that works for you.
You have access to doing some real-life miles and experience.
You ahve access to friends who can help you with anything you don't understand.
Some people enjoy doing lots of the courses up the ladder from from Dazed Kipper to Yotmeister.
Others just do the minimum they need to e.g. charter a boat in Greece.
Others make YM Offshore their goal and do what courses they need, in conjunction with sailing outsde of courses.
Some mix any of the above with owning their own boat.
You don't have to do every step on the 'shorebased' and 'practical' ladders, many people jump in at the higher levels with a view to instructing.
Read the 'assumed knowledge' in the syllabus on the RYA website.
Personally I would say consider doing the YM Offshore theory, it's not ever so hard if you can grasp basic vectors in maths, nuthin' fancy, just knowing what they mean and adding them up by drawing them.
I've heard online YM is a bit variable but you'll be fine if you can access other sources, buy the odd book and talk stuff through with a friend.
Some people do the theory as a 1 week block inthe classroom, this does not work for everyone, some people benefit from time out to read around the subject, talk through it with friends etc Equally many weeks of nightschool has its drawbacks.
F2F in the classroom can be a wind-up, there will be someone who is slow to grasp certain bits and takes up lots of teacher time.
Some people seem to get trained to pass the exam, but don't really understand WTF it all means, or how it relates to the grubby reality of a wet boat at nightt.
There is no need to use the same school for any of it. It's a common syllabus scheme. Lots of the instructors are freelance and work for various schools.
Beware of some older books and very old gits who pre-date the inclusion of GPS/electronic charts in the scheme. You still need to handle the 'old skool' stuff though.
The theory willmake much more sense if you can put in in practice on the water.
But you will find that many boaters don't do terribly much theory in day to day sailing.
Basically, I can get anywhere I went last year without looking at a chart, and I've got Navionics on my phone.
But if things get difficult, I can do the theory etc and know the rules and all that.
Dinghy sailing, particularly racing, may make you a better sailor, but squeezing the last few % out of a cruising yacht is rarely important.
I've known talented dinghy racers be a danger and a menace on bigger boats!
I like to sail my boat well, there is a spectrum through to people who are happy motoring everywhere and might unroll a sail if the wind suits.
Thank you sooooo much for taking the time to read my post and replying so well!You can learn all the theory for free, from books in your local library.
If that works for you.
You have access to doing some real-life miles and experience.
You ahve access to friends who can help you with anything you don't understand.
Some people enjoy doing lots of the courses up the ladder from from Dazed Kipper to Yotmeister.
Others just do the minimum they need to e.g. charter a boat in Greece.
Others make YM Offshore their goal and do what courses they need, in conjunction with sailing outsde of courses.
Some mix any of the above with owning their own boat.
You don't have to do every step on the 'shorebased' and 'practical' ladders, many people jump in at the higher levels with a view to instructing.
Read the 'assumed knowledge' in the syllabus on the RYA website.
Personally I would say consider doing the YM Offshore theory, it's not ever so hard if you can grasp basic vectors in maths, nuthin' fancy, just knowing what they mean and adding them up by drawing them.
I've heard online YM is a bit variable but you'll be fine if you can access other sources, buy the odd book and talk stuff through with a friend.
Some people do the theory as a 1 week block inthe classroom, this does not work for everyone, some people benefit from time out to read around the subject, talk through it with friends etc Equally many weeks of nightschool has its drawbacks.
F2F in the classroom can be a wind-up, there will be someone who is slow to grasp certain bits and takes up lots of teacher time.
Some people seem to get trained to pass the exam, but don't really understand WTF it all means, or how it relates to the grubby reality of a wet boat at nightt.
There is no need to use the same school for any of it. It's a common syllabus scheme. Lots of the instructors are freelance and work for various schools.
Beware of some older books and very old gits who pre-date the inclusion of GPS/electronic charts in the scheme. You still need to handle the 'old skool' stuff though.
The theory willmake much more sense if you can put in in practice on the water.
But you will find that many boaters don't do terribly much theory in day to day sailing.
Basically, I can get anywhere I went last year without looking at a chart, and I've got Navionics on my phone.
But if things get difficult, I can do the theory etc and know the rules and all that.
Dinghy sailing, particularly racing, may make you a better sailor, but squeezing the last few % out of a cruising yacht is rarely important.
I've known talented dinghy racers be a danger and a menace on bigger boats!
I like to sail my boat well, there is a spectrum through to people who are happy motoring everywhere and might unroll a sail if the wind suits.
You have really helped me with my thoughts and also explained my situation quite well! (I think you may have guided people before?!). I want to embark on a journey and just see where it takes me (holidays, adventures, maybe buy a yacht).
I'm starting to think my shore based training should be online leaning on my friends if I'm not sure of something. I'm edging towards Day skipper initially, but read your comments around YM offshore and now I'm wondering if this would be possible or perhaps I wouldn't have enough knowledge/experience?
The afloat training for me looks to be Day skipper initially and then build up from there (miles, experience etc). Question is where? thinking I could go abroad to this recognising that it will not be the UK experience however I can get that experience myself anyway.
For me the endpoint isnt fixed, however the holiday (obviously in the best conditions) last week really showed me how much fun its possible to have on a yacht. Whether I feel the same about on a wet yacht in Scotland in the cold is another story.....
I don't want to knock 'Day Skipper', it's a useful 'ticket' which allows a lot of people to charter in the Med without over-reaching themselves and it's a good level of competence, which would actually cover the majority of what I actually do these days.
But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
OutInTheShed said:
I don't want to knock 'Day Skipper', it's a useful 'ticket' which allows a lot of people to charter in the Med without over-reaching themselves and it's a good level of competence, which would actually cover the majority of what I actually do these days.
But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
Touching on your last point, I sail with some very experienced sailors yet I think I’m one of the few that has a certificate to my name, experience is everything here and day skipper ticks the majority of boxes. I could be a yacht master offshore (only thing stopping me for ocean is astro nav) but it wouldn’t open any new doors for me chartering in the med or racing in the solent/offshore. But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
ecsrobin said:
OutInTheShed said:
I don't want to knock 'Day Skipper', it's a useful 'ticket' which allows a lot of people to charter in the Med without over-reaching themselves and it's a good level of competence, which would actually cover the majority of what I actually do these days.
But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
Touching on your last point, I sail with some very experienced sailors yet I think I’m one of the few that has a certificate to my name, experience is everything here and day skipper ticks the majority of boxes. I could be a yacht master offshore (only thing stopping me for ocean is astro nav) but it wouldn’t open any new doors for me chartering in the med or racing in the solent/offshore. But, in the UK, with tides and all that, sailing in daylight only can be very restrictive.
Half the time it's dark, and half the time the tide's going the wrong way...
These things get out of synch!
Plus, sailing at night is quite a special thing, whether it's a channel crossing or getting in to Dartmouth on a Summer evening to make last orders.
It's not hard, it's not just for the elite, but it is 'different'. I'd recommend anyone to get some night hours.
Being viewed as a 'safe pair of hands' to be on watch at night is a valuable thing if you are wanting to cadge rides on other peoples boats.
If you are looking beyond 'needing the certificate', I would think twice abour labelling yourself as 'day' skipper if the next notch up is in your reach.
Having said that, among boat owners and club members, we don't really judge people by their level of certification, if I were looking for crew it's more about personal recommendations and reputations. I know plenty of people with no certs who can handle a boat as well as I can.
ecsrobin said:
Touching on your last point, I sail with some very experienced sailors yet I think I’m one of the few that has a certificate to my name, experience is everything here and day skipper ticks the majority of boxes. I could be a yacht master offshore (only thing stopping me for ocean is astro nav) but it wouldn’t open any new doors for me chartering in the med or racing in the solent/offshore.
I agree.But if you go looking for doors you can open with YM, they do exist.
For a lot of people it's entry level for paid work on expensive yachts.
For others, it can create opportunities for crewing on deliveries.
For many people, it's not much harder to achieve YM Offshore than a lower level.
It just takes a bit more commitment to racking up the miles and days.
Personally, I booked the exam and then looked at my log book, and realsied quite a lot of my 'experience' was out of date.
And a lot of what I'd done since wasn't written down.
Had to arrange a wine-buying trip to St Vaast.
Thank you for supplying your continuing thoughts on this. For me its about the journey, I haven't really got an end in mind.......If I find the qualifications too difficult then I will not do them so I need to tread a little gently.
I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house). So I'm thinking of doing my Day skipper practical abroad somewhere with the a shore course to support (unsure whether I should do Day skipper or something slightly higher level).
I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house). So I'm thinking of doing my Day skipper practical abroad somewhere with the a shore course to support (unsure whether I should do Day skipper or something slightly higher level).
Day skipper is where you want to start. It gives you a good understanding of what is expected and then from there you can decide if you want more.
Regarding racing I’d say do it, it’s great fun even when it’s cold and wet. Although depending on the amount of crew and size of boat you might find you do a very specific job or more generic. For Cowes week we run with a crew of around 20-24 so very specific jobs. When we used to do winter series we had 7-10 so you had to do a bit of everything to stay competitive.
Transferring those skills to when I charter for fun in the med is a bit nerve racking not having the support of the team and on a new boat but after the first day it’s great fun. I’ve been to Croatia quite a few times and yet our last trip managed to wrap the prop twice, I felt quite deflated the first time as I didn’t think I’d done anything wrong, a charter skipper came over who witnessed it blamed the guy on the dock which was nice to here. The 2nd time we messed up but adds to the experience.
Regarding racing I’d say do it, it’s great fun even when it’s cold and wet. Although depending on the amount of crew and size of boat you might find you do a very specific job or more generic. For Cowes week we run with a crew of around 20-24 so very specific jobs. When we used to do winter series we had 7-10 so you had to do a bit of everything to stay competitive.
Transferring those skills to when I charter for fun in the med is a bit nerve racking not having the support of the team and on a new boat but after the first day it’s great fun. I’ve been to Croatia quite a few times and yet our last trip managed to wrap the prop twice, I felt quite deflated the first time as I didn’t think I’d done anything wrong, a charter skipper came over who witnessed it blamed the guy on the dock which was nice to here. The 2nd time we messed up but adds to the experience.
Picking up a few things from this thread...
-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
-VHF license is a must have and easy, learning navigation theory can also be done from books and online resources, however try to balance the theory with practical stuff, it will make things "click" a lot more. The reality these days is that pretty much all coastal navigation will be on a plotter (GPS) and very rarely will you write on a chart (marine map) but you still need to know the theory and be able to passage plan effectively.
-Practical course is a good idea, find an RYA registered school. And if you join a club, try and sail with different people to get an idea of what kind of boat you might like, and to learn other skills, sailing is a bit of a funny one as if you gave a piece of rope to 10 different skippers and asked them to demonstrate how they would attach a bow line to the dock/pontoon, you're going to get 10 slightly different ways! Pick the bits that work for you, your crew, and your boat.
-You absolutely need to be practical and be able to trouble shoot, maintain, fix, and bodge things. Your skills need to include working on engines/gearboxes, marine "plumbing", electrical items, knots/ropework, sewing, carpentry, boat hardware such as winches/spars, painting, cleaning etc etc.
-Most sailing boats are much faster under sail (in a decent breeze) than they are under engine. The engine is there for when the wind dies, for manoeuvring/coming alongside, for charging batteries or giving hot water, or for making progress if the wind/tide aren't right, and you cannot passage plan a better route/time.
-If you're buying a boat, for any given budget, decide whether you want:
-Fin keel or bilge keel (fin keel generally has better sailing performance, bilge keel allows the boat to "dry out" and stand upright on the keels when the tide goes out
-Especially in smaller boats, everything is about compromise, do you want better performance/seakeeping ability or more room?
-Inboard diesel or outboard petrol?
Then you need to look at (in order of importance) condition of the hull, condition of the engine, condition of the rig, condition of the sails, and then general equipment levels.
Sadler 26/Sabre 27/Centaur 26 and that ilk are all good, solid cruisers with a bit of club racing potential and can take you far and wide. You can easily find one of those in good condition, with a decent inboard diesel, decent sails, and decent basic electronics (speed, depth, wind, plotter) and pretty much everything you need to go sailing straightaway for £10k.
At that price point, I'd actually be cautious of getting a survey, you may be better with a knowledgeable friend, and a good look over all documentation/receipts. A survey will usually be very heavily caveated, won't do things like a diesel compression test, and sadly often misses important stuff. Always worth contacting the class association of the boat you wish to buy...many of these boats will be 30-50 years old now (and will easily last the same again), design weak spots will be known and you can be pointed straight at things to look out for, and see whether remedial work has been done (for example, rudder tang failure on the Sabre, keel splay on the Centaur). If the work has been done to a good standard, view that very much as a plus point!
Enjoy!
-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
-VHF license is a must have and easy, learning navigation theory can also be done from books and online resources, however try to balance the theory with practical stuff, it will make things "click" a lot more. The reality these days is that pretty much all coastal navigation will be on a plotter (GPS) and very rarely will you write on a chart (marine map) but you still need to know the theory and be able to passage plan effectively.
-Practical course is a good idea, find an RYA registered school. And if you join a club, try and sail with different people to get an idea of what kind of boat you might like, and to learn other skills, sailing is a bit of a funny one as if you gave a piece of rope to 10 different skippers and asked them to demonstrate how they would attach a bow line to the dock/pontoon, you're going to get 10 slightly different ways! Pick the bits that work for you, your crew, and your boat.
-You absolutely need to be practical and be able to trouble shoot, maintain, fix, and bodge things. Your skills need to include working on engines/gearboxes, marine "plumbing", electrical items, knots/ropework, sewing, carpentry, boat hardware such as winches/spars, painting, cleaning etc etc.
-Most sailing boats are much faster under sail (in a decent breeze) than they are under engine. The engine is there for when the wind dies, for manoeuvring/coming alongside, for charging batteries or giving hot water, or for making progress if the wind/tide aren't right, and you cannot passage plan a better route/time.
-If you're buying a boat, for any given budget, decide whether you want:
-Fin keel or bilge keel (fin keel generally has better sailing performance, bilge keel allows the boat to "dry out" and stand upright on the keels when the tide goes out
-Especially in smaller boats, everything is about compromise, do you want better performance/seakeeping ability or more room?
-Inboard diesel or outboard petrol?
Then you need to look at (in order of importance) condition of the hull, condition of the engine, condition of the rig, condition of the sails, and then general equipment levels.
Sadler 26/Sabre 27/Centaur 26 and that ilk are all good, solid cruisers with a bit of club racing potential and can take you far and wide. You can easily find one of those in good condition, with a decent inboard diesel, decent sails, and decent basic electronics (speed, depth, wind, plotter) and pretty much everything you need to go sailing straightaway for £10k.
At that price point, I'd actually be cautious of getting a survey, you may be better with a knowledgeable friend, and a good look over all documentation/receipts. A survey will usually be very heavily caveated, won't do things like a diesel compression test, and sadly often misses important stuff. Always worth contacting the class association of the boat you wish to buy...many of these boats will be 30-50 years old now (and will easily last the same again), design weak spots will be known and you can be pointed straight at things to look out for, and see whether remedial work has been done (for example, rudder tang failure on the Sabre, keel splay on the Centaur). If the work has been done to a good standard, view that very much as a plus point!
Enjoy!
rugbyleague said:
Thank you for supplying your continuing thoughts on this. For me its about the journey, I haven't really got an end in mind.......If I find the qualifications too difficult then I will not do them so I need to tread a little gently.
I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house).
I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house).
Don't worry about buying a boat yet - you will invariably learn more going racing about actually sailing a boat properly in a short space of time - than any other activity - great opportunity to learn to sail without any expenditure other than a few post race beers for a debrief. Whether cruising or racing - time spent on the water is the best time of your life.
Hard-Drive said:
Picking up a few things from this thread...
-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
Actually i would wholeheartedly agree with the above - as a multiple Caterham owner and all year round boat racing fanatic -100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
If I ever get new crew on the boat if they can sail a dinghy well - even better raced one - I know they can sail. I have a number of people who have come on the boat and solely done a competent crew course and their knowledge is based around which knot to use to tie on fenders - with the fundamentals of sailing not really covered1573 said:
Actually i would wholeheartedly agree with the above - as a multiple Caterham owner and all year round boat racing fanatic If I ever get new crew on the boat if they can sail a dinghy well - even better raced one - I know they can sail. I have a number of people who have come on the boat and solely done a competent crew course and their knowledge is based around which knot to use to tie on fenders - with the fundamentals of sailing not really covered
Although watch out for over confident dinghy sailors we had one end a big race for us once punching a hole through our very expensive sail! Someone else mentioned it earlier like anything you get bad of everything but as someone who hasn’t sail a dinghy you can spot them a mile away with their sail trimming skills. Same with windsurfers. If I ever get new crew on the boat if they can sail a dinghy well - even better raced one - I know they can sail. I have a number of people who have come on the boat and solely done a competent crew course and their knowledge is based around which knot to use to tie on fenders - with the fundamentals of sailing not really coveredrugbyleague said:
Thank you for supplying your continuing thoughts on this. For me its about the journey, I haven't really got an end in mind.......If I find the qualifications too difficult then I will not do them so I need to tread a little gently.
I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house). So I'm thinking of doing my Day skipper practical abroad somewhere with the a shore course to support (unsure whether I should do Day skipper or something slightly higher level).
If it’s the Greek islands that got under your skin then a Med-based Day Skipper course sounds like a good place to start. There’s not much call for the tidal aspect in much of the Med, however, it makes sense to include it if you ever start chartering elsewhere, e.g. Thailand.I have opportunities to go on sailing yachts in the UK (Just this week I was asked if wanted to crew in a fortnightly race series 30 mins from my house). So I'm thinking of doing my Day skipper practical abroad somewhere with the a shore course to support (unsure whether I should do Day skipper or something slightly higher level).
Gibraltar is a good option as it combines Med sailing with tidal effects, there is a school there offering 9-day tidal courses including shore based training. You can also cross to Africa to get the full experience of dealing with busy shipping lanes and cross border arrival procedures for yachts.
I followed the same path of falling in love with the Greek islands, got Day Skipper and I’ve now accrued about 6 months of mainly Med bareboat chartering over about 15 years, monohull and multihull, up to about 55 feet.
Thought about buying a yacht many times but found that charter offers so much freedom and choice of location and boat length, and as long as you plan ahead, you can find some cracking deals.
There are comparison websites that trawl all the charter agencies, which I guess you are possibly aware of.
To reiterate what others have said, there is no substitute for experience with yachting, training and qualifications are only going to get you so far. Day skipper is minimum in my opinion but can also be all you ever need if you build yourself up to bigger yachts progressively.
A lot of what you need in the Med to make a safe and enjoyable experience for everyone onboard comes from learning from mistakes (and watching other boats around you) but that’s half the fun. You won’t necessarily get that experience from thousands of miles at sea on a Yachtmaster course. You want to be building experience on smaller boats where it’s a lot easier to sort things if (or most likely when) they go wrong.
Hard-Drive said:
Picking up a few things from this thread...
-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
....
Enjoy!
But learning to drive to the edge of grip in a Caterham isn't good training for reversing an artic through a gate.-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
....
Enjoy!
To further flog to death the metaphor, like in motorsport, it's best to learn young, the best racing yachtsmen tend to have been born into it.
Skippers' certificates are not about being an excellent helm, or a God of sail trim.
They are about competence in every aspect of being wholly responsible for a boat and its crew.
You have to be competent at sailing a boat, but that is a fraction of it.
Manouevring the boat under motor is an equal if not greater part of it ,and that can only be learned in a similar boat.
Other big parts of it are passage planning, including weather, navigation, pilotage, varoius seamanship stuff. See syllabus for details!
The big part of it which a lot struggle with is 'management level'.
Supervising crew, divvy up the jobs, checking everybody is doing the right thing, a level of training the crew, explaining your plan for every evolution for example.
This can come as a shock to fast sailors!
And singlehanded yachtsmen.
I'm all in favour of doing some dinghy sailing along the way, our Wednesday evening racing has quite a lot of helms in it who also sail yachts.
The thing is, with sailing, the learning is continuous, you can learn to be a better helm or sail trimmer at any point, this time of year I'd suggest cracking on with the yacht side of things, dinghy sailing can be done in the Autumn or WInter.
Also very beginner sailing can be done on a yacht, ideally a small one. It's not so much like the bad old days when yachts tended to be badly rigged unresponsive things.
OutInTheShed said:
Hard-Drive said:
Picking up a few things from this thread...
-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
....
Enjoy!
But learning to drive to the edge of grip in a Caterham isn't good training for reversing an artic through a gate.-100% learn to sail in a dinghy. You don't learn car control in a Scania, you do it in a Caterham, so you understand all the forces in play and how to keep things balanced and efficient. Once you can sail a dinghy fairly well, get onto a big boat, and you'll also be sailing that well too.
....
Enjoy!
To further flog to death the metaphor, like in motorsport, it's best to learn young, the best racing yachtsmen tend to have been born into it.
Skippers' certificates are not about being an excellent helm, or a God of sail trim.
They are about competence in every aspect of being wholly responsible for a boat and its crew.
You have to be competent at sailing a boat, but that is a fraction of it.
Manouevring the boat under motor is an equal if not greater part of it ,and that can only be learned in a similar boat.
Other big parts of it are passage planning, including weather, navigation, pilotage, varoius seamanship stuff. See syllabus for details!
The big part of it which a lot struggle with is 'management level'.
Supervising crew, divvy up the jobs, checking everybody is doing the right thing, a level of training the crew, explaining your plan for every evolution for example.
This can come as a shock to fast sailors!
And singlehanded yachtsmen.
I'm all in favour of doing some dinghy sailing along the way, our Wednesday evening racing has quite a lot of helms in it who also sail yachts.
The thing is, with sailing, the learning is continuous, you can learn to be a better helm or sail trimmer at any point, this time of year I'd suggest cracking on with the yacht side of things, dinghy sailing can be done in the Autumn or WInter.
Also very beginner sailing can be done on a yacht, ideally a small one. It's not so much like the bad old days when yachts tended to be badly rigged unresponsive things.
My Caterham analogy was that it's much easier to show someone "this is oversteer, and here's how to correct it" in a simple, direct, responsive analogue car than in 2 tons of SUV with driver aids hammering away or a Scania. The actual speed isn't relevant, think skid pan not lap times.
Totally agree on passage planning, nav, met etc etc but you do need to sail the boat efficiently and safely for the conditions.
For context I'm an ex 18' skiff/12' skiff/49er sailor and currently own a Bav32 which I sail short/single handed in the Solent.
Hard-Drive said:
The OP is looking at a 27' sailing boat to pootle around Scotland in. I suspect they will be single or short handed. They are hardly going to be managing two watches of 5 people each. My point was to learn the forces and physics of sailing, a dinghy is best. No one said you have to be a fast driver or ace trimmer to sail a yacht, however when you see people sailing a boat on it's ear, dragging the rudder sideways, that's just not good sailing. Ditto when you see a line of yachts (possibly into the hundreds in the RTIR) and you see two types of sailors...the ones with their head out the boat, looking ahead, spotting the gust and easing the sails before it hits, and the ones fixated by the instruments who suddenly wonder why their spreaders are touching the water whilst the main is still pinned in.
My Caterham analogy was that it's much easier to show someone "this is oversteer, and here's how to correct it" in a simple, direct, responsive analogue car than in 2 tons of SUV with driver aids hammering away or a Scania. The actual speed isn't relevant, think skid pan not lap times.
Totally agree on passage planning, nav, met etc etc but you do need to sail the boat efficiently and safely for the conditions.
For context I'm an ex 18' skiff/12' skiff/49er sailor and currently own a Bav32 which I sail short/single handed in the Solent.
Have you done any skipper/YM exams?My Caterham analogy was that it's much easier to show someone "this is oversteer, and here's how to correct it" in a simple, direct, responsive analogue car than in 2 tons of SUV with driver aids hammering away or a Scania. The actual speed isn't relevant, think skid pan not lap times.
Totally agree on passage planning, nav, met etc etc but you do need to sail the boat efficiently and safely for the conditions.
For context I'm an ex 18' skiff/12' skiff/49er sailor and currently own a Bav32 which I sail short/single handed in the Solent.
The OP wants to improve his sailing, and wants to get a qualification or two.
These are two distinct goals. They interact, but they are not the same.
Personally I consider myself lucky to have done a wide variety of sailing on various boats.
Currenty mixing singlehanded dinghy racing with a small cruiser based in Devon and occasional outings on bigger boats.
I think stuff you learn on any boat (or even a windsurfer) comes in useful on other boats.
Do as much sailing as you can, but focus on getting where you want to be.
Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff