Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[pavarotti1980]

Dixy said:

2 things stand out from the consultants offer.
Firstly how little we value and reward the nearest thing we have to gods and secondly the changes to the SPA could be a significant stumbling block.

At least god doesn't think he is a consultant

[sawman]

pavarotti1980 said:

Dixy said:

2 things stand out from the consultants offer.
Firstly how little we value and reward the nearest thing we have to gods and secondly the changes to the SPA could be a significant stumbling block.

At least god doesn't think he is a consultant

Might do if the T's & C's were better...

[Killboy]

sawman said:

pavarotti1980 said:

Dixy said:

2 things stand out from the consultants offer.
Firstly how little we value and reward the nearest thing we have to gods and secondly the changes to the SPA could be a significant stumbling block.

At least god doesn't think he is a consultant

Might do if the T's & C's were better...

And the pay to be fair.

[Dixy]

If you think the waiting time is bad in ED, no one ever gets to see god.
And god gets Sunday off

[Killboy]

Dixy said:

If you think the waiting time is bad in ED, no one ever gets to see god.
And god gets Sunday off

Well to be fair I think you get to see god when the waiting lists get long enough.

[dmsims]

[Vasco]

dmsims said:

Doesn't seem unrealistic for those with the right skills.

[AstonZagato]

I'd say many of those are too low for the responsibilities that come with the role. And the trust CEOs that I have come across do seem somewhat to conform to the adage of "pay peanuts, get monkeys". That is not to say that you should up the pay of the current monkeys.

[dmsims]

Exactly what responsibilties do you think they have? (Chief Exec's)

AstonZagato said:

I'd say many of those are too low for the responsibilities that come with the role.

[Dixy]

Whilst I think that the consultants are the second most important people in the hospital, a great CEO should make the whole thing function.

[borcy]

I wonder how many of the people put on the board from clinical roles have any training to do those roles?

I know it was something highlighted by the Messenger review or was it kicked into the long grass/not invented here?

[AstonZagato]

dmsims said:

Exactly what responsibilties do you think they have? (Chief Exec's)

AstonZagato said:

I'd say many of those are too low for the responsibilities that come with the role.

They are running organisations with thousands of staff (11,000 for my local hospital), treating thousands of patients though hundreds of beds and thousands of clinics. The financial turnover is measured in hundreds of millions. The CEO needs to secure the revenue, manage the budget, set the key medical and H&S policies and is ultimately responsible for the outcomes of all of those. Clearly they have help but the CEO needs to balance those whilst also dealing with the politics/politicians that infect the NHS. I wouldn't do it for £200k. If you can do that well, you'd be in demand from large private sector organisations at a multiple of that with far fewer sleepless nights.

[ConnectionError]

dmsims said:

What point are you trying to make.?

[oddman]

AstonZagato said:

I'd say many of those are too low for the responsibilities that come with the role. And the trust CEOs that I have come across do seem somewhat to conform to the adage of "pay peanuts, get monkeys". That is not to say that you should up the pay of the current monkeys.

I thing you're right. There is no way the pay and responsibility would attract quality candidates from similar size enterprises in the private sector. In my experience, the only time we had infiltration from the private sector was when there was a big PFI contract up for grabs.

borcy said:

I wonder how many of the people put on the board from clinical roles have any training to do those roles?

I know it was something highlighted by the Messenger review or was it kicked into the long grass/not invented here?

Most NHS managers have a background in nursing and other clinical roles. One of the diffculties of the career pathway is that nurses have to abandon clinical practice when they step on the lowest rung of the management career (ward manager). As they make career progression there's an inevitable tension between the instincts of the clinician and the responsibilities of a manager. It is very unusual to see someone who is still obviously a doctor or nurse to the core in senior manager. Yet the handful of really good managers I knew were first class clinicians. The best managers I knew were really good at developing staff and teams and the good managers were great at holding an umbrella up to stop the rain of crap showering onto staff from above.

The compromises required for career progression selects for psychopaths and billy bullstters.

[dmsims]

Ah you mean like this:

"Building on the report of the first inquiry, the story it tells is first and foremost of appalling suffering of many patients. This was primarily caused by a serious failure on the part of a provider Trust Board.It did not listen sufficiently to its patients and staff or ensure the correction of deficiencies brought to
the Trust’s attention. Above all, it failed to tackle an insidious negative culture involving a tolerance of poor standards and a disengagement from managerial and leadership responsibilities. This failure was in part the consequence of allowing a focus on reaching national access targets, achieving
financial balance and seeking foundation trust status to be at the cost of delivering acceptable standards of care."

AstonZagato said:

They are running organisations with thousands of staff (11,000 for my local hospital), treating thousands of patients though hundreds of beds and thousands of clinics. The financial turnover is measured in hundreds of millions. The CEO needs to secure the revenue, manage the budget, set the key medical and H&S policies and is ultimately responsible for the outcomes of all of those. Clearly they have help but the CEO needs to balance those whilst also dealing with the politics/politicians that infect the NHS. I wouldn't do it for £200k. If you can do that well, you'd be in demand from large private sector organisations at a multiple of that with far fewer sleepless nights.

[borcy]

oddman said:

Most NHS managers have a background in nursing and other clinical roles. One of the diffculties of the career pathway is that nurses have to abandon clinical practice when they step on the lowest rung of the management career (ward manager). As they make career progression there's an inevitable tension between the instincts of the clinician and the responsibilities of a manager. It is very unusual to see someone who is still obviously a doctor or nurse to the core in senior manager. Yet the handful of really good managers I knew were first class clinicians. The best managers I knew were really good at developing staff and teams and the good managers were great at holding an umbrella up to stop the rain of crap showering onto staff from above.

The compromises required for career progression selects for psychopaths and billy bullstters.

Is there sufficient training for them to move into management roles? Is there much in house training?

I'm interested as it's been brought up in quite a few reviews and the messenger review specifically.

Yes that's allows apprciated by staff, better known as a st filter.

[dmsims]

What exactly do they run?

Do they do any treatment, clinic management etc ?

Infortunately the internal market has created an entire layer and web of financial waste

Do you think HR or the CE have any input on medical, medical recruitment policies ?

Say the CE disappeared tomorrow would the hospital stop functioning the next day, after a month, a year or three ?

AstonZagato said:

They are running organisations with thousands of staff (11,000 for my local hospital), treating thousands of patients though hundreds of beds and thousands of clinics. The financial turnover is measured in hundreds of millions. The CEO needs to secure the revenue, manage the budget, set the key medical and H&S policies and is ultimately responsible for the outcomes of all of those. Clearly they have help but the CEO needs to balance those whilst also dealing with the politics/politicians that infect the NHS. I wouldn't do it for £200k. If you can do that well, you'd be in demand from large private sector organisations at a multiple of that with far fewer sleepless nights.

[oddman]

borcy said:

oddman said:

Most NHS managers have a background in nursing and other clinical roles. One of the diffculties of the career pathway is that nurses have to abandon clinical practice when they step on the lowest rung of the management career (ward manager). As they make career progression there's an inevitable tension between the instincts of the clinician and the responsibilities of a manager. It is very unusual to see someone who is still obviously a doctor or nurse to the core in senior manager. Yet the handful of really good managers I knew were first class clinicians. The best managers I knew were really good at developing staff and teams and the good managers were great at holding an umbrella up to stop the rain of crap showering onto staff from above.

The compromises required for career progression selects for psychopaths and billy bullstters.

Is there sufficient training for them to move into management roles? Is there much in house training?

I'm interested as it's been brought up in quite a few reviews and the messenger review specifically.

Yes that's allows apprciated by staff, better known as a st filter.

There's nothing structured. An ambitious manager will plot a series of roles, never stopping long enough for the consequences of their actions to impede their progress. Whilst staff who specialise, for instance, Clinical Nurse Specialists there are training programmes and Masters degrees etc, the training available for managers is not standardised. Canny managers are good at spotting programmes which will allow them to avoid work and responsibility whilst gilding their CVs.

There are no formal qualifications or registratering body for managers so no quality control at the outset and and no professional body to refer to in the case of incompetence/malpractice. There have been examples of medical and nursing managers allowing registration with GMC NMC to lapse in order to avoid scrutiny.

[Vasco]

dmsims said:

If you don't understand structures, or how people can motivate others, just say so.

[borcy]

oddman said:

borcy said:

oddman said:

Most NHS managers have a background in nursing and other clinical roles. One of the diffculties of the career pathway is that nurses have to abandon clinical practice when they step on the lowest rung of the management career (ward manager). As they make career progression there's an inevitable tension between the instincts of the clinician and the responsibilities of a manager. It is very unusual to see someone who is still obviously a doctor or nurse to the core in senior manager. Yet the handful of really good managers I knew were first class clinicians. The best managers I knew were really good at developing staff and teams and the good managers were great at holding an umbrella up to stop the rain of crap showering onto staff from above.

The compromises required for career progression selects for psychopaths and billy bullstters.

Is there sufficient training for them to move into management roles? Is there much in house training?

I'm interested as it's been brought up in quite a few reviews and the messenger review specifically.

Yes that's allows apprciated by staff, better known as a st filter.

There's nothing structured. An ambitious manager will plot a series of roles, never stopping long enough for the consequences of their actions to impede their progress. Whilst staff who specialise, for instance, Clinical Nurse Specialists there are training programmes and Masters degrees etc, the training available for managers is not standardised. Canny managers are good at spotting programmes which will allow them to avoid work and responsibility whilst gilding their CVs.

There are no formal qualifications or registratering body for managers so no quality control at the outset and and no professional body to refer to in the case of incompetence/malpractice. There have been examples of medical and nursing managers allowing registration with GMC NMC to lapse in order to avoid scrutiny.

I thought it might be the case.

I wonder how many managers need to have a clinical background for some depts, I'd seen a few jobs adverts that don't really seem like you need to have a clinical background but it's a requirement. I wonder how many are written that way as to create a pathway for internal candidates rather an objective view?