Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Poll: Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Total Members Polled: 1014
Discussion
Biggy Stardust said:
skwdenyer said:
No, people who work in businesses that properly index wages can’t do that.
There’s no actual question but that real-terms NHS wages have gone backwards, is there?
What happened to those outside the NHS? Similar.There’s no actual question but that real-terms NHS wages have gone backwards, is there?
There are significant recruitment and retention pressures in many specialties and in general practice. These need to be addressed in a number of ways, including through a significant increase in remuneration. Personally I would like a doctor to be there when I need one. 15-20% would improve the situation.
We need to make progress towards having a similar number of doctors per 100,000 of the population as other OECD countries. At the moment we are towards the bottom of the pile.
We need to make progress towards having a similar number of doctors per 100,000 of the population as other OECD countries. At the moment we are towards the bottom of the pile.
Biggy Stardust said:
skwdenyer said:
There are many industries in which wages have kept up with inflation - or at least far closer than the NHS.
Rather than cherry picking how about we take them all as a whole? The NHS shouldn't (can't) exist in a vacuum, isolated from the rest of the economy.blueg33 said:
Its a good point. Job security is down to how good you are, pension is 8% by employer and I forgot to add we pay £7k per annum car allowance.
By the time he is mid 30's a good land guy is on £110 plus bonus. By the time he is in his 40's he is on £170 plus up to 100% of salary as bonus. This does outstrip most doctors but job security become a bigger issue.
Those salaries put land managers above the vast majority of professions, not just doctors. Something like 175k puts you in the top 1% of earners.By the time he is mid 30's a good land guy is on £110 plus bonus. By the time he is in his 40's he is on £170 plus up to 100% of salary as bonus. This does outstrip most doctors but job security become a bigger issue.
How many land managers are there...? And how many get that sort of pay? (max/min/mean/median?).
I say give them 35%, in fact screw it 50%.... then triple lock future raises. Seems fair to me and what they all want right?
Then
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
Then
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
gotoPzero said:
I say give them 35%, in fact screw it 50%.... then triple lock future raises. Seems fair to me and what they all want right?
Then
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
I fear you're conflating some Drs with all Drs in this thinking.Then
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
If you want to see what happens if we don't sort this out, go and try to get NHS dental care. Oh, oops...
And let's also ask Govt why there's an artificial limit places on medical training places.
I'm assuming those who want least-cost NHS Drs all have private health insurance?
FiF said:
Frankly the way their rep misused % calculations and
mixed in absolute numbers of pounds to obfuscate and try to justify the 35% figure made me lose almost all respect for their demands.
It's a common mistake that people make when using % to justify a position, and mathematically illiterate. Hope she's more capable at working out dosage, dozy sod.
The leader of the nurses' union did pretty much the same thing when asking for 19%. She claimed a real-terms loss of an eleven year period implying that it was somehow representative where in reality only a very small minority of staff actually met that criterion. Dishonest and disingenuous. `mixed in absolute numbers of pounds to obfuscate and try to justify the 35% figure made me lose almost all respect for their demands.
It's a common mistake that people make when using % to justify a position, and mathematically illiterate. Hope she's more capable at working out dosage, dozy sod.
Caveat: figures from memory but the point is still valid.
gotoPzero said:
I say give them 35%, in fact screw it 50%.... then triple lock future raises. Seems fair to me and what they all want right?
Then
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
WordThen
Lock them into a 20 year contract. If they pull out early they get hit in the pensions, say 70% reduction of the pot.
They cant leave the UK to practice medicine other than as a volunteer for charity.
They cant do any non NHS private practice work whilst still being an NHS doc, its one or the other.
Locum rate reduced from £75/hr+ to their regular pay rate. If you want to work 15 hours a week for £100k a year then forget it.
They cant own or take any share in a LTD which they also practice within as a doctor. PAYE only.
Any transgressions resulting in GMC action more than once (i.e suspension or supervision orders) you are out. No third chances. (its crazy how many doctors end up in front of the GMC)
I think if you did something like that they would soon realise their lot is alright. Yeah its hard work for a few years, but nothing comes for free these days... oh wait other than a 35% pay rise "because mafzz".
FFS.
I am too thick to be a doctor but do have horses in this race.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like s
t and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.
In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like s
t and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
The NHS lives in a vacuum. Its has a health monopoly in the country and private medicine is all but pushed into the margins. There is no alternative for a medic in the UK but to work for the NHS, or move abroad.
Already medics are the best and brightest in our society and should be rewarded as such. If they hadn't chosen medicine when they left school they could have the choice of ANY other job in the country. They are the best of us.
So the real decision for the country, is not lets see how little we can pay medics, but
1) Are we happy to lower the entrance requirement for universities from AAA to CCC for medics and reduce the demands for the course so that a CCC candidate can become a doctor. That way we can reduce the shortage and pay what a CCC candidate would expect to earn in the private sector. No more problems apart from if you are ill.
2) Are we happy to stop the NHS, and let people actually pay for the time of a candidate who can achieve the high standards required to gain entry, and finish a medical degree course. In other words let market forces determine their pay. The problem with this is that looking at other first world societies medics are probably in the highest paid groups, possibly exorbitantly so.
3) Or contest that they have had a 26% pay reduction in the last ten years, because if that was true then society has pretty much shamelessly exploited the good will of medics for the last ten years and needs to suck it up and stop whinging.
Already medics are the best and brightest in our society and should be rewarded as such. If they hadn't chosen medicine when they left school they could have the choice of ANY other job in the country. They are the best of us.
So the real decision for the country, is not lets see how little we can pay medics, but
1) Are we happy to lower the entrance requirement for universities from AAA to CCC for medics and reduce the demands for the course so that a CCC candidate can become a doctor. That way we can reduce the shortage and pay what a CCC candidate would expect to earn in the private sector. No more problems apart from if you are ill.
2) Are we happy to stop the NHS, and let people actually pay for the time of a candidate who can achieve the high standards required to gain entry, and finish a medical degree course. In other words let market forces determine their pay. The problem with this is that looking at other first world societies medics are probably in the highest paid groups, possibly exorbitantly so.
3) Or contest that they have had a 26% pay reduction in the last ten years, because if that was true then society has pretty much shamelessly exploited the good will of medics for the last ten years and needs to suck it up and stop whinging.
Dixy said:
I am too thick to be a doctor but do have horses in this race.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like st and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.
In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
Unsure if you are arguing for a pay rise or a career change for her?35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like s
t and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
pork911 said:
Dixy said:
I am too thick to be a doctor but do have horses in this race.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like st and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.
In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
Unsure if you are arguing for a pay rise or a career change for her?35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like s
t and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like s
t, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.deckster said:
I thought the message was fairly clear. If you want good doctors, then treat them well and pay them well.
If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like st, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.
Just doctors, or more, or all taxpayer funded workers?If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like s
t, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.pork911 said:
deckster said:
I thought the message was fairly clear. If you want good doctors, then treat them well and pay them well.
If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like st, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.
Just doctors, or more, or all taxpayer funded workers?If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like s
t, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.irc said:
MiniMan64 said:
irc said:
"
9% in line with other public sector workers in fact more than most seems enough.
What public sector workers were offered 9%?9% in line with other public sector workers in fact more than most seems enough.
https://unison-scotland.org/nhs-pay-talks-2023-24/
Dixy said:
I am too thick to be a doctor but do have horses in this race.
35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like st and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.
In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
Agree with your view as I do have family in medicine. On the face of it they seem to earn a good wage but not when you see the work they do and the hours they do. Not enough doctors for the job, the ones available are saying pay us more if you want us to continue. Seems reasonable. 35% is being portrayed as unreasonable yet they have explained why they came up with the figure so there is a reason.
It is an opening position, when I went to order my Porsche the sales person said it is £X, I laughed and said no be reasonable, they said do you want a Porsche or not. So do you want doctors or not.
On the subject of medical school places being over subscribed, there are roughly 8,500 places a year. Last year at the end of F2 the NHS retained 700.
Yes they do flock to other countries who pay significantly more, dont treat them like s
t and dont expect them to work 18 hour shifts.In order to do most private work you have to be a consultant. They can and do do locum work but that does not pay like Harley Street and even then if you have 2 jobs then you should expect 2 salaries.
When they were taking their A levels was when the purchasing power of a junior was 35% more
Unlike almost all other staff in the NHS they did not get the Covid bonus that the state made such a song and dance about.
I have a son who is a chartered engineer his partner is a JD, they met at sixth form, their salaries are almost identical, he works normal hours, she worked lates over Easter. He just says he wants these 2 weeks holiday she has to swap shifts and book 2 months in advance. I could fill the page with the inequality.
Dont comment on the pension until you fully understand how convoluted the NHS pension scheme is and how it has been diluted over time and how much they have to put in. Again my sons deal is better.
I left the NHS years ago and glad I did, the pay was s
t, the workload ridiculous. Much happier and dare I say healthier for leaving it! Can’t say if the percentage they ask is fair having in mind the last ten years but as an isolated figure it seems a lot but we need context for that pay rise and for the amount of work being done.
Edited by CrgT16 on Tuesday 11th April 15:10
CrgT16 said:
One issue is that the hours worked are not set in stone due to the nature of the work.
That’s why they end up saying £14/h that’s only because they can be doing many more hours than they are in theory contracted to.
As far as I know they get paid for more or less every hour they work. That’s why they end up saying £14/h that’s only because they can be doing many more hours than they are in theory contracted to.
The £14 is a first year out of university doctor. As I quoted above £59k plus overtime after 5 years.
Many jobs pay low wages for a couple of year because in reality you are still training and are not as valuable as a member of staff with more experience.
I think being in the top 15% of workers 5 years out of university is ok.
If they are arguing the starting salary is too low that is another argument.
deckster said:
pork911 said:
deckster said:
I thought the message was fairly clear. If you want good doctors, then treat them well and pay them well.
If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like st, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.
Just doctors, or more, or all taxpayer funded workers?If you don't want good doctors, then treat them like s
t, pay them like st, and watch the good ones take the other options that are undoubtedly open to them. Which is exactly what is happening right now.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff