F1 has rejected Andretti's entry bid
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
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Andretti are a storied brand, but seem to have precious little relevant transferable experience in designing F1-type cars.
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"A storied brand" ? Heavens above - do you work in marketing ? Andretti are a storied brand, but seem to have precious little relevant transferable experience in designing F1-type cars.
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Transferable experience ? Oh , you mean like Williams , McLaren , Alpine (nee Toleman) , Red Bull(nee Stewart ) . Mercedes (nee Tyrrell ) , whatever Minardi is called this season , Haas , Sauber and Aston Martin(nee Jordan) didn't have when they started ?
It's simple - you spend lots of cash, preferably not your own, lease a factory and you hire people - from designer to driver to toilet cleaner . And if they aren't good enough , they will fail , sell up or drop out . Oddly enough , that is exactly how it has worked for Grand Prix racing since 1906 French GP in 1906 and for Formula 1 since 1950.
Forester1965 said:
Stewart F1 had no experience building an F1 car when it entered. Neither did Ford when they bought it. Neither did Red Bull when they bought it. Seemed to do ok.
The only reason Liberty and the teams don't want another entrant is it'll dilute the asset value of the teams and Liberty will have to stump up extra prize money to keep the others happy which will impact their bottom line. As Liberty say themselves about F1, "scarcity increases demand".
Ford had the Stewart people, corporate knowledge, data & infrastructure. RBR had Ford’s. Only Stewart started from scratch - and in those days, a chap in a shed (eg Simtek) could get on the grid and be approximately competitive.The only reason Liberty and the teams don't want another entrant is it'll dilute the asset value of the teams and Liberty will have to stump up extra prize money to keep the others happy which will impact their bottom line. As Liberty say themselves about F1, "scarcity increases demand".
The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
coppice said:
skwdenyer said:
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Andretti are a storied brand, but seem to have precious little relevant transferable experience in designing F1-type cars.
.
"A storied brand" ? Heavens above - do you work in marketing ? Andretti are a storied brand, but seem to have precious little relevant transferable experience in designing F1-type cars.
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Transferable experience ? Oh , you mean like Williams , McLaren , Alpine (nee Toleman) , Red Bull(nee Stewart ) . Mercedes (nee Tyrrell ) , whatever Minardi is called this season , Haas , Sauber and Aston Martin(nee Jordan) didn't have when they started ?
It's simple - you spend lots of cash, preferably not your own, lease a factory and you hire people - from designer to driver to toilet cleaner . And if they aren't good enough , they will fail , sell up or drop out . Oddly enough , that is exactly how it has worked for Grand Prix racing since 1906 French GP in 1906 and for Formula 1 since 1950.
But see above: I’m not saying it shouldn’t happen; I’m saying there needs to be a path.
skwdenyer said:
Forester1965 said:
Stewart F1 had no experience building an F1 car when it entered. Neither did Ford when they bought it. Neither did Red Bull when they bought it. Seemed to do ok.
The only reason Liberty and the teams don't want another entrant is it'll dilute the asset value of the teams and Liberty will have to stump up extra prize money to keep the others happy which will impact their bottom line. As Liberty say themselves about F1, "scarcity increases demand".
Ford had the Stewart people, corporate knowledge, data & infrastructure. RBR had Ford’s. Only Stewart started from scratch - and in those days, a chap in a shed (eg Simtek) could get on the grid and be approximately competitive.The only reason Liberty and the teams don't want another entrant is it'll dilute the asset value of the teams and Liberty will have to stump up extra prize money to keep the others happy which will impact their bottom line. As Liberty say themselves about F1, "scarcity increases demand".
The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
Then we'll see if it's about money dilution or fear.
skwdenyer said:
Ford had the Stewart people, corporate knowledge, data & infrastructure. RBR had Ford’s. Only Stewart started from scratch - and in those days, a chap in a shed (eg Simtek) could get on the grid and be approximately competitive.
The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
Andretti are hiring a lot of current F1 staff. They will have current F1 knowledge. It's not going to be a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics suddenly trying to design an F1 car.The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
The Caterham/Virgin/HRT entry was different. They were promised a low budget cap in return for greater technical freedom compared to the existing teams, but that offer was pulled out from under them late in the day, so they all came into the sport under-resourced and with none of the technical advantages to make up the difference.
thegreenhell said:
skwdenyer said:
Ford had the Stewart people, corporate knowledge, data & infrastructure. RBR had Ford’s. Only Stewart started from scratch - and in those days, a chap in a shed (eg Simtek) could get on the grid and be approximately competitive.
The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
Andretti are hiring a lot of current F1 staff. They will have current F1 knowledge. It's not going to be a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics suddenly trying to design an F1 car.The last time this was tried it was a failure - Caterham et al.
Now I’m not saying it shouldn’t be allowed. I’m saying there needs to be a path to it happening. For instance, a massive relaxation on aero and testing for a new entrant.
The Caterham/Virgin/HRT entry was different. They were promised a low budget cap in return for greater technical freedom compared to the existing teams, but that offer was pulled out from under them late in the day, so they all came into the sport under-resourced and with none of the technical advantages to make up the difference.
- CFD codes (there's no off-the-shelf F1-standard CFD that I'm aware of);
- simulators (the sim itself isn't the issue; it is the underlying physics codes);
- baseline wind tunnel data (and which tunnel are you going to use?).
If you gave me a bunch of money, do I think I could put together a team that could get to within 105%? Possibly, yes. That would still be over 3 seconds a lap off the pace in, say, Miami.
I'm not talking about "a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics" thank you very much! I'm talking about the fact that there's almost no comparable motorsport discipline left, apart from perhaps LM "Supercars." In the past, constructors used to build other formula cars. Even that knowledge wasn't transferable - recall the failures of Raynard, Penske and others to make the step up in *much* simpler times.
Anyhow, we shall see. As I've said repeatedly, I support the idea of Andretti being allowed an entry. If F1 wants to institute a "franchise" model (like NFL) they're going to have to re-cast their governing documents to enshrine that. For now, the rules state additional teams may enter, and I support the application of those rules.
There have always been failures of new teams in F1, and rightly so. F1 is supposed to be hard, and it shouldn't be possible for just anyone to rock up and be successful straight away.
But there have also been many successes - obviously, because otherwise there would be no F1 as all the teams would have failed. And not all of those had ever built a single car of any kind beforehand, so had no corporate knowledge bank to call upon.
The difference now is that the current owners have decided it's too hard for anyone to make that leap so won't even let anyone have that chance to try. And yet every single one of those currently there blocking this entry was once on the other end of things and allowed an entry to make their start in the sport.
I wonder what would happen if Andretti hired Adrian Newey to head their effort, not that that is likely to happen. But would they be taken more seriously, or pushed away even more as a bigger threat to the establishment?
But there have also been many successes - obviously, because otherwise there would be no F1 as all the teams would have failed. And not all of those had ever built a single car of any kind beforehand, so had no corporate knowledge bank to call upon.
The difference now is that the current owners have decided it's too hard for anyone to make that leap so won't even let anyone have that chance to try. And yet every single one of those currently there blocking this entry was once on the other end of things and allowed an entry to make their start in the sport.
I wonder what would happen if Andretti hired Adrian Newey to head their effort, not that that is likely to happen. But would they be taken more seriously, or pushed away even more as a bigger threat to the establishment?
All the speculation about their access to information , experience blah blah is irrelevant. I repeat - if they make a car compliant with the rules to be driven by a driver with the right licence they should have the chance to compete . It is as starkly simple as that and that is the arrangement which has applied for most of F1 history.
We all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
We all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
coppice said:
All the speculation about their access to information , experience blah blah is irrelevant. I repeat - if they make a car compliant with the rules to be driven by a driver with the right licence they should have the chance to compete . It is as starkly simple as that and that is the arrangement which has applied for most of F1 history.
We all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
Well quite, especially given that the commercial agreements contain an explicit buy-in clause which covers the payment of an entry fee by any new team. We all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
Andretti appear to be to going full steam ahead anyway, spending tens of millions on their new facility at Silverstone, and tens of millions more staffing it with a load of F1 experience, while the US arm of the operation appears to have got a few Congresscritters onside to make a nuisance of themselves to Liberty, given that FIA have already approved the entry on the technical terms.
Good luck to them!
coppice said:
All the speculation about their access to information , experience blah blah is irrelevant. I repeat - if they make a car compliant with the rules to be driven by a driver with the right licence they should have the chance to compete . It is as starkly simple as that and that is the arrangement which has applied for most of F1 history.
We all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
QuiteWe all know why there is so moaning and chuntering from the self interested shower who make up the F1 cartel . Because they might make less money. My heart bleeds .
skwdenyer said:
I understand the history. But I think you're underestimating the importance of corporate knowledge in this sphere. You're talking about - from scratch - putting together things including:
- CFD codes (there's no off-the-shelf F1-standard CFD that I'm aware of);
- simulators (the sim itself isn't the issue; it is the underlying physics codes);
- baseline wind tunnel data (and which tunnel are you going to use?).
If you gave me a bunch of money, do I think I could put together a team that could get to within 105%? Possibly, yes. That would still be over 3 seconds a lap off the pace in, say, Miami.
I'm not talking about "a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics" thank you very much! I'm talking about the fact that there's almost no comparable motorsport discipline left, apart from perhaps LM "Supercars." In the past, constructors used to build other formula cars. Even that knowledge wasn't transferable - recall the failures of Raynard, Penske and others to make the step up in *much* simpler times.
Anyhow, we shall see. As I've said repeatedly, I support the idea of Andretti being allowed an entry. If F1 wants to institute a "franchise" model (like NFL) they're going to have to re-cast their governing documents to enshrine that. For now, the rules state additional teams may enter, and I support the application of those rules.
Don't mean to be harsh but I don't believe you have the faintest idea of what is required to build a F1 team from scratch. If I've assumed incorrectly, please accept my apologies and feel free to convince me I'm wrong- CFD codes (there's no off-the-shelf F1-standard CFD that I'm aware of);
- simulators (the sim itself isn't the issue; it is the underlying physics codes);
- baseline wind tunnel data (and which tunnel are you going to use?).
If you gave me a bunch of money, do I think I could put together a team that could get to within 105%? Possibly, yes. That would still be over 3 seconds a lap off the pace in, say, Miami.
I'm not talking about "a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics" thank you very much! I'm talking about the fact that there's almost no comparable motorsport discipline left, apart from perhaps LM "Supercars." In the past, constructors used to build other formula cars. Even that knowledge wasn't transferable - recall the failures of Raynard, Penske and others to make the step up in *much* simpler times.
Anyhow, we shall see. As I've said repeatedly, I support the idea of Andretti being allowed an entry. If F1 wants to institute a "franchise" model (like NFL) they're going to have to re-cast their governing documents to enshrine that. For now, the rules state additional teams may enter, and I support the application of those rules.
I will however agree on your comment that there is no comparable form of motorsport compared to F1. In the past LMP1 was the probably the closest in all round technology. Now only small aspects of various other categories might be considered comparable but none would include the most important competitive aspect of aero performance
Also agree Andretti/GM should be given the opportunity of competing in F1 even though it's so obvious from their comments in the press they haven't grasped the enormity/reality of the task they've set themselves
skwdenyer said:
I understand the history. But I think you're underestimating the importance of corporate knowledge in this sphere. You're talking about - from scratch - putting together things including:
- CFD codes (there's no off-the-shelf F1-standard CFD that I'm aware of);
- simulators (the sim itself isn't the issue; it is the underlying physics codes);
- baseline wind tunnel data (and which tunnel are you going to use?).
If you gave me a bunch of money, do I think I could put together a team that could get to within 105%? Possibly, yes. That would still be over 3 seconds a lap off the pace in, say, Miami.
I'm not talking about "a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics" thank you very much! I'm talking about the fact that there's almost no comparable motorsport discipline left, apart from perhaps LM "Supercars." In the past, constructors used to build other formula cars. Even that knowledge wasn't transferable - recall the failures of Raynard, Penske and others to make the step up in *much* simpler times.
Anyhow, we shall see. As I've said repeatedly, I support the idea of Andretti being allowed an entry. If F1 wants to institute a "franchise" model (like NFL) they're going to have to re-cast their governing documents to enshrine that. For now, the rules state additional teams may enter, and I support the application of those rules.
How different are F1 physics engines compared with other industries?- CFD codes (there's no off-the-shelf F1-standard CFD that I'm aware of);
- simulators (the sim itself isn't the issue; it is the underlying physics codes);
- baseline wind tunnel data (and which tunnel are you going to use?).
If you gave me a bunch of money, do I think I could put together a team that could get to within 105%? Possibly, yes. That would still be over 3 seconds a lap off the pace in, say, Miami.
I'm not talking about "a bunch of redneck NASCAR mechanics" thank you very much! I'm talking about the fact that there's almost no comparable motorsport discipline left, apart from perhaps LM "Supercars." In the past, constructors used to build other formula cars. Even that knowledge wasn't transferable - recall the failures of Raynard, Penske and others to make the step up in *much* simpler times.
Anyhow, we shall see. As I've said repeatedly, I support the idea of Andretti being allowed an entry. If F1 wants to institute a "franchise" model (like NFL) they're going to have to re-cast their governing documents to enshrine that. For now, the rules state additional teams may enter, and I support the application of those rules.
Hollywood, CERN, gaming, aerospace etc?
Forester1965 said:
Worth bearing in mind the FIA approved the entry in October last year. If there were concerns over the ability to build and run a compliant car that's where it would've failed.
The final decision was 'subject to the commercial rights holder's approval'. Make of that what you will.
I don't see how a commercial right holder can deny a participant who meets the sporting body (FIA) requirements.The final decision was 'subject to the commercial rights holder's approval'. Make of that what you will.
F1 has to abide by the international Court for sport arbitration (forgotten it's name now).
Hope everyone wears Andretti merchandise to races.
marine boy said:
Don't mean to be harsh but I don't believe you have the faintest idea of what is required to build a F1 team from scratch. If I've assumed incorrectly, please accept my apologies and feel free to convince me I'm wrong
Oh come on - you throw money at it , and the more you throw and the faster you throw it the quicker things happen. Lots of teams have don exactly tje same thing over the years , some succeeded, most don't . But yet again - so what ? It's like Apple closing me down because I want to invent a better smartphone in my shed . If it's too hard Andretti wont even turn up to a race. The issue here is that other people are (possibly unlawfully) denying them the chance , and are using specious arguments to justify themselves . And we know it is nothing to do with potential ability - James Vowles has at last said as such, arguing his duty is to his employees. He is either no stranger to irony or failed his F1 history O level , given Williams tangled and erratic attempst to get into the sport.
I'm all for more teams in F1. Heck, I well remember rhe days of pre-qualifying.
However, won't the budget cap cause Andretti huge problems in getting competitive?
Williams say they can't compete because the cap prevents them from spending money on new facilities.
Can Andretti/Ford just chuck billions at it before entry?
I suppose they can.
However, won't the budget cap cause Andretti huge problems in getting competitive?
Williams say they can't compete because the cap prevents them from spending money on new facilities.
Can Andretti/Ford just chuck billions at it before entry?
I suppose they can.
coppice said:
Oh come on - you throw money at it , and the more you throw and the faster you throw it the quicker things happen. Lots of teams have don exactly tje same thing over the years , some succeeded, most don't .
Throw money at it not possible now in the cost cap eraOnly way to out spend exsisting teams is before and up to the year a new entry is accepted
How new teams have approached F1 in the past is not relevant anymore
No sign of Andretti or GM out spending established teams and why would they if there is no guarantee of an entry
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