diff failures - Oil??
Discussion
I originally posted this up in Ford section since the failures were on Ford English axle diffs which I suspect were down to CRAP EP 80/90 oil. I've run English axles since 1972 - never had a failure until 18months ago, now I've had a 2nd failure after only 1200 miles,
However no-one replied in that forum hopefully someone here can help.
Here's the original post:-
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'Anyone else had recent failures of Ford English axle differentials due to worn gear teeth? I've used english axles for 40 years - never had a Diff problem til recemtly
I used ep 80/90 oil from my local motor factors which clearly hasn't lubed the teeth??
The photo's below are after only 1200 miles in a 550 kg kit car, you can clearly see that the teeth faces are worn out due to lack of lubrication.
This is the second failure I've had - last year the diff was howling when I took the car off the road for the winter, the car had done 3800 miles last year but didin 't fail completely like the one shown in the photo's, but the teeth were worn.
Would the ep80/90 halfords oil be the correct oil for this application??
I went specifically looking for a quality oil , I could only get Halfords own branded. Is this OK for English diff.'
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Checking the original Ford Escort works manual they recommend EP90 for differentials, the halfords rating is EP80/90 GL-5 whatever that means?????
Anyone else had any failures recently??
ANY OIL EXPERTS ON HERE who know whether the EP80/90 oil formula has changed recently?
However no-one replied in that forum hopefully someone here can help.
Here's the original post:-
>
'Anyone else had recent failures of Ford English axle differentials due to worn gear teeth? I've used english axles for 40 years - never had a Diff problem til recemtly
I used ep 80/90 oil from my local motor factors which clearly hasn't lubed the teeth??
The photo's below are after only 1200 miles in a 550 kg kit car, you can clearly see that the teeth faces are worn out due to lack of lubrication.
This is the second failure I've had - last year the diff was howling when I took the car off the road for the winter, the car had done 3800 miles last year but didin 't fail completely like the one shown in the photo's, but the teeth were worn.
Would the ep80/90 halfords oil be the correct oil for this application??
I went specifically looking for a quality oil , I could only get Halfords own branded. Is this OK for English diff.'
>
Checking the original Ford Escort works manual they recommend EP90 for differentials, the halfords rating is EP80/90 GL-5 whatever that means?????
Anyone else had any failures recently??
ANY OIL EXPERTS ON HERE who know whether the EP80/90 oil formula has changed recently?
rene7 said:
you can clearly see that the teeth faces are worn out
I can't, but I'll take your word for it.rene7 said:
due to lack of lubrication.
Who built the diff? Were the gears in as-new condition when installed? (How do you know?) Was the engagement set correctly? (How do you know?) Was it filled with the correct amount of oil? (How do you know?)Will wait for the answers to earlier questions.
In the meantime 80/90 should be fine, Halfords don't make/refine oil so they buy it in. Due to their size and buying power I suspect it comes from a well know large supplier as the last thing they want is bad press if people start getting failures.
I don't believe your failure is due to oil.
Don't think this has been asked yet...how much power are you putting through the diff and what type of driving.
Steve
In the meantime 80/90 should be fine, Halfords don't make/refine oil so they buy it in. Due to their size and buying power I suspect it comes from a well know large supplier as the last thing they want is bad press if people start getting failures.
I don't believe your failure is due to oil.
Don't think this has been asked yet...how much power are you putting through the diff and what type of driving.
Steve
Sorry for late response.
No point in taking a pic of pinion - no teeth left - all worn away
The diff was standard Lotus 7 fitted 3.77:1
As you can see from pics - quaife ATB diff was fitted
Car is 1970 Lotus 7
Power 155bhp
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I rebuilt the diff as I have many times when I've changed CWP's To different ratios, with/without LSD or ATB
Last years failure [3800 miles] was on 3.54:1 diff again with ATB fitted
Car has done 85000 miles with me driving it as Colin Chapman intended ie thrashed
- No Morris Minor or TVR type cruises whatsoever.
Tyre size 185/70x13" until recently when they became unavailable I used Yoko Ao21r's in 185/70x13" Size, now I have to use Normal 185/70x13" road tyres, which have less grip than the yoko's
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As previously mentioned I've never had a problem with diff failing until last years 3.54 broke a coupla pinion teeth and hence it started Howling, It was then I swopped to the original diff fitted to the car 3.77:1 the 3.54 teeth looked worn just like this diff, but I initially put that down to the broken pinion teeth - Now I'm not so sure.
The oil which I believe caused the failure wasn't the halfords which I showed but a bottle I got from local Motor factors. The point in showing the halfords oil was because that's what I intend to use next [ assuming you lot think its the correct stuff]??
TA
Maybe its not clear from my photos but the teeth have been worn considerably - gobsmackingly so - I've spent all my life working in Mech eng as a toolmaker - I've NEVER seen gear teeth worn in this way, the diff was full of oil when I took it off the car, so the only conclusion I could come to was that the oil was NOT lubricating the teeth, thus causing friction and hence the wear, unfortunately I don't have the Brand of oil I used, however It came from a motor factors I've used for 35 years the owner has a Mk1 Escort TC, so its unlikely he would sell crap, the oil said EP 80/90 on label I alway check this, however the Halfords oil clearly states for Differentials, they also sell EP 80/90 gear oil but that a GL-4 designation - Is this relevant??
No point in taking a pic of pinion - no teeth left - all worn away
The diff was standard Lotus 7 fitted 3.77:1
As you can see from pics - quaife ATB diff was fitted
Car is 1970 Lotus 7
Power 155bhp
>
I rebuilt the diff as I have many times when I've changed CWP's To different ratios, with/without LSD or ATB
Last years failure [3800 miles] was on 3.54:1 diff again with ATB fitted
Car has done 85000 miles with me driving it as Colin Chapman intended ie thrashed
- No Morris Minor or TVR type cruises whatsoever.Tyre size 185/70x13" until recently when they became unavailable I used Yoko Ao21r's in 185/70x13" Size, now I have to use Normal 185/70x13" road tyres, which have less grip than the yoko's
>
As previously mentioned I've never had a problem with diff failing until last years 3.54 broke a coupla pinion teeth and hence it started Howling, It was then I swopped to the original diff fitted to the car 3.77:1 the 3.54 teeth looked worn just like this diff, but I initially put that down to the broken pinion teeth - Now I'm not so sure.
The oil which I believe caused the failure wasn't the halfords which I showed but a bottle I got from local Motor factors. The point in showing the halfords oil was because that's what I intend to use next [ assuming you lot think its the correct stuff]??
TA
Maybe its not clear from my photos but the teeth have been worn considerably - gobsmackingly so - I've spent all my life working in Mech eng as a toolmaker - I've NEVER seen gear teeth worn in this way, the diff was full of oil when I took it off the car, so the only conclusion I could come to was that the oil was NOT lubricating the teeth, thus causing friction and hence the wear, unfortunately I don't have the Brand of oil I used, however It came from a motor factors I've used for 35 years the owner has a Mk1 Escort TC, so its unlikely he would sell crap, the oil said EP 80/90 on label I alway check this, however the Halfords oil clearly states for Differentials, they also sell EP 80/90 gear oil but that a GL-4 designation - Is this relevant??
Edited by rene7 on Monday 25th June 14:27
GreenV8S
Good point - IMO this would support what I've said about the oil NOT providing lubrication, Here's another photo which better shows the wear across the whole of and on the centre of the teeth:-
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Now to return to my original Q - does anyone know whether diff EP 80/90 oil specification has been changed recently??
Good point
- IMO this would support what I've said about the oil NOT providing lubrication, Here's another photo which better shows the wear across the whole of and on the centre of the teeth:->
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Now to return to my original Q - does anyone know whether diff EP 80/90 oil specification has been changed recently??
The chances of the failures being down to the oil are almost zero, so really whether or not the oil spec has changed is largely irrelevant as unless it is some bizarre made in china s
te.....it will still be a gear oil as per label.
Most likely whether you which to believe it or not, it will be a build issue.
Whether lash too tight or too loose, or perhaps more likely incorrect pinion depth
te.....it will still be a gear oil as per label.Most likely whether you which to believe it or not, it will be a build issue.
Whether lash too tight or too loose, or perhaps more likely incorrect pinion depth
I still don't believe the root cause is oil.
Looks more like a machining or meshing discrepancy form the limited view of the pics.
Were the crown wheel & pinion definitely the correct pitch?
Was the preload & contact definitely correct?
Something the likes of these has caused excessive/incorrect contact which has caused wear like that to start the ball rolling & no amount of the best oil in the world was going to stop that.
Looks more like a machining or meshing discrepancy form the limited view of the pics.
Were the crown wheel & pinion definitely the correct pitch?
Was the preload & contact definitely correct?
Something the likes of these has caused excessive/incorrect contact which has caused wear like that to start the ball rolling & no amount of the best oil in the world was going to stop that.
I used to race a Caterham with an Ital axle. New old stock Morris CWPs were used. The book fill quantity for the diff was less than a litre EP90 GL-4.
However the Caterham could corner a lot harder than a Morris Ital. The oil would simply sod off down the axle tube at the first sign of a corner, leaving the CWP to overheat. I wore a new diff out in a single day at Brands Hatch.
One solution would be improved baffles to keep the oil in the diff. As these weren’t allowed by regulations the next best solution was to add more oil.
I used to put three litres in. No problems thereafter.
However the Caterham could corner a lot harder than a Morris Ital. The oil would simply sod off down the axle tube at the first sign of a corner, leaving the CWP to overheat. I wore a new diff out in a single day at Brands Hatch.
One solution would be improved baffles to keep the oil in the diff. As these weren’t allowed by regulations the next best solution was to add more oil.
I used to put three litres in. No problems thereafter.
rene7 said:
Thanks for UR help guys - Here's one of the 4 pages from a Ford escort works manual for rebuilding English diffs - and YES I can read, and DO own all the required kit necessary to do the work.
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PS
Did anyone ever find out whether EP oil specs have changed recently.
Thread Closed
That relates ONLY to setting lash, nothing more. There is a lot more to a diff build than that.>
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PS
Did anyone ever find out whether EP oil specs have changed recently.
Thread Closed
And if you're obsessing about the least likely cause of failure instead of the most likely, you'll never get to the bottom of it.
rene7 said:
Did anyone ever find out whether EP oil specs have changed recently.
Seems pretty unlikely the specs would change for the worse for no obvious reason and extraordinarily unlikely they would change to the extent that would lead to that sort of massive sudden wear. Far more likely that either the diff was running without lubrication, or was assembled wrongly such that the teeth weren't being loaded correctly. From your picture of the manual and reference to tools I suppose you believe it was assembled correctly, but since you don't say what you actually did it's hard to be sure of that from this side of the screen. Not trying to knock you - we've never met and you've no reason to care what I think, I'm just trying to help you understand what went wrong. Wow the OP asked a real simple Q - [Does anyone know whether EP80/90 spec has changed recently?] and all you guys Belittle him
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Its a very valid Q - though clearly all you lot work for the Major oil companies and are covering up for the currently availble fluid masquerading as EP oil
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PH use to be a great forum for real petrolheads to swop useful tips & info - now it would appear to be full of smartasses, only Green V8S offered anything remotely useful to the OP.
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Sooner PH goes the way of all the other useful forums the better
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Its a very valid Q - though clearly all you lot work for the Major oil companies and are covering up for the currently availble fluid masquerading as EP oil
>
PH use to be a great forum for real petrolheads to swop useful tips & info - now it would appear to be full of smartasses, only Green V8S offered anything remotely useful to the OP.
>
Sooner PH goes the way of all the other useful forums the better
S47 said:
Its a very valid Q - though clearly all you lot work for the Major oil companies and are covering up for the currently availble fluid masquerading as EP oil
Is this a fact, and if so why not elaborate on this part rather than criticising others as it could actually be useful information? S47 said:
Wow the OP asked a real simple Q - [Does anyone know whether EP80/90 spec has changed recently?] and all you guys Belittle him
>
Its a very valid Q - though clearly all you lot work for the Major oil companies and are covering up for the currently availble fluid masquerading as EP oil
>
PH use to be a great forum for real petrolheads to swop useful tips & info - now it would appear to be full of smartasses, only Green V8S offered anything remotely useful to the OP.
>
Sooner PH goes the way of all the other useful forums the better
OK yea, it's the oil. the oil caused this fault on only his vehicle.....none of the other thousands it gets used on.>
Its a very valid Q - though clearly all you lot work for the Major oil companies and are covering up for the currently availble fluid masquerading as EP oil
>
PH use to be a great forum for real petrolheads to swop useful tips & info - now it would appear to be full of smartasses, only Green V8S offered anything remotely useful to the OP.
>
Sooner PH goes the way of all the other useful forums the better
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