Garden Tax on the cards?
Discussion
98elise said:
Dingu said:
It’s worrying but unsurprising how frothy some Telegraph Tory propaganda gets people.
How about the Gardian and Labour propaganda at the last election...https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/22/l...
If of course, the Guardian had suggested that a Tory government were going to raise taxes to the highest level since WW2, then that would have been similar doom-mongering to this case.
Electro1980 said:
Terminator X said:
You think we should pay more? It's already £2.5k for me and I can see nothing for it other than collecting the bins every 2 weeks.
TX.
So, you never use the roads? Want your streets cleaned? Who would you call if your house was on fire? Did you never go to school?TX.
TX.
98elise said:
How does a newer property pay more in the same area? New builds get put into the same band similar value properties. The original valuations were just to establish the bands.
What's the relationship between a house in Chelsea vs one in a cheaper part of the country, and what has that got to do with their relative council budgets?
You should be paying for what you consume. By your logic someone in Chelsea and Wesminster should pay more for their food, energy etc just because their house cost more.
Potentially someone in Chelsea and Westminster should be paying more for their food because rents, rates, wages etc will all be higher in Westminster and Chelsea than other places.What's the relationship between a house in Chelsea vs one in a cheaper part of the country, and what has that got to do with their relative council budgets?
You should be paying for what you consume. By your logic someone in Chelsea and Wesminster should pay more for their food, energy etc just because their house cost more.
Edited by 98elise on Tuesday 14th May 13:52
I never said a newer property should pay more, whether they should pay more is dependent on the capital value of the property. If the evidence is that new properties cost more then they should pay more.
However the reality is that when I looked at sales of properties in Westminster in June 2022 4 Band E properties had sold for prices ranging from £745,000 to £1,225,000. 3 Band F properties sold for prices from £540,000 to £920,000. Indeed the most expensive Band E house sold for more than the cheapest houses in all the Bands above it.
The issue being house prices have changed within council areas by different amounts and that is not taken in account without a revaluation.
If we are going to have a property tax should it not be based on the property value, or maybe instead we should pay capital gains tax on our homes?
119 said:
Terminator X said:
No work on the roads near me, potholes the size of craters. Same for street sweeping. Fire brigade never needed them in my entire life. Schools? Surprised if funded by the LA but maybe you are right.
TX.
I guess you didn’t use school either.TX.
119 said:
The government puts tax on things to stop people doing them. They claim it's very effective.Except this tax, of course- it will somehow encourage more tourism.
The trouble with schemes like 'garden tax' etc it is that local government is totally incompetent and often more corrupt than central government (whatever their political colours).
This country is a disaster area for the 'more tax= things will be better' mantra. All that will happen is the criminal
s will trouser more of the money and NOTHING will change. (because it never does).
I know a number of people who live in the Netherlands where they have a wealth tax. I don't pretend that the Netherlands are some kind of utopia but you CAN see where the money is being spent , it seems obvious to me when I'm there as opposed to the UK. (although they grumble about it they do admit you can see where it's spent compared to UK)
I despise the Tories but I wouldn't trust Labour further than you can throw them. Lets not forget Blairs hard-on for ID cards (lets not pretend he won't be in Starmers ear the whole time when they are in government) and their plans (that thankfully never materialised) to have 'inspectors' go around your home and count rooms, etc. F.R.O.
We are taxed to breaking point in this country and get NOTHING for it. The sad thing is that if things like this get implemented people will grumble and write strongly worded letters to the Times instead of rioting.
I still want to see the Tories out but it will be a st sandwich either way for normal people, just different st in the sandwich.
This country is a disaster area for the 'more tax= things will be better' mantra. All that will happen is the criminal
s will trouser more of the money and NOTHING will change. (because it never does).I know a number of people who live in the Netherlands where they have a wealth tax. I don't pretend that the Netherlands are some kind of utopia but you CAN see where the money is being spent , it seems obvious to me when I'm there as opposed to the UK. (although they grumble about it they do admit you can see where it's spent compared to UK)
I despise the Tories but I wouldn't trust Labour further than you can throw them. Lets not forget Blairs hard-on for ID cards (lets not pretend he won't be in Starmers ear the whole time when they are in government) and their plans (that thankfully never materialised) to have 'inspectors' go around your home and count rooms, etc. F.R.O.
We are taxed to breaking point in this country and get NOTHING for it. The sad thing is that if things like this get implemented people will grumble and write strongly worded letters to the Times instead of rioting.
I still want to see the Tories out but it will be a s
t sandwich either way for normal people, just different st in the sandwich.98elise said:
Dingu said:
It’s worrying but unsurprising how frothy some Telegraph Tory propaganda gets people.
How about the Gardian and Labour propaganda at the last election...https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/22/l...
vaud said:
RustyMX5 said:
I have to pay a £50 surcharge every year if I want the garden waste bin taken away by the council. (Bucks)
£53 in Bradford, for 1 bin, an extra £40 for 2.Oh and now they are closing the tips so you have to drive 9 miles to drop anything there...
Local ‘recycling’ centre sell off the council compost. So technically selling you back your own garden waste.
Sooner I’m off grid the better.
TUS373 said:
Excuse me for putting this in the Lounge, but more people will see it if kept here rather than in the politics area.
I was not aware of this, but just told by my mother-in-law (who has far more time than me to listen to the news) that Labour are considering changing the way council tax is managed, by including a factor about how big a house's garden is. I think this must be a seed (excuse the pun) from the Corbyn days, but I gather that is already being used in Wales. It is said that councils will survey properties by drone, so if you have a sizeable garden (and I don't know what that means in real terms) you pay more tax.
There will be people way more aware than I about this on here, and no doubt those who may say "well, those that live in posh houses should pay more", but is this really likely to be a thing in the future, after a general election?
Why would they fI was not aware of this, but just told by my mother-in-law (who has far more time than me to listen to the news) that Labour are considering changing the way council tax is managed, by including a factor about how big a house's garden is. I think this must be a seed (excuse the pun) from the Corbyn days, but I gather that is already being used in Wales. It is said that councils will survey properties by drone, so if you have a sizeable garden (and I don't know what that means in real terms) you pay more tax.
There will be people way more aware than I about this on here, and no doubt those who may say "well, those that live in posh houses should pay more", but is this really likely to be a thing in the future, after a general election?
k about with drones? All the data needed is on the land registry. An LVT might restrain the bonkers land values the UK has, although IHT exemption of farmland is just as bad at distorting value.Chrisgr31 said:
If we are going to have a property tax should it not be based on the property value, or maybe instead we should pay capital gains tax on our homes?
Who's setting that value ? The council? I'd be happy with that if the council also agreed that they would buy the house at their valuation if I chose to sell it.I'd also be happy with CGT on main residences, provided that it a) replaced stamp duty, b) was inflation linked, and c) all maintenance and improvement costs were deductible.
vaud said:
Spare tyre said:
Shirley someone would have to measure it an them implement which would cost a daft amount
With high res imaging (15-30cm) that is commercially available + land registry + some automation you could probably build a platform fairly cheaply if you just had a small/medium/large/vast set of taxation rather than per square meter.Does sound like a Corbyn hangover though.
Some interesting discussion on something I will file with the Tory's promise to raise speed limits during the Blair / Broon years
Totally agree the issue with ctax is lack of valuation, but the south east/London voters would indeed find themselves subsidising the midlands/ north and outlying ethnic regions of our union by virtue of their house price. Will they get any thanks for it? No chance.
Others have already filled in the gaps in your understanding about council services, so I won't labour it.
I would just add the Tories completely cocked up high needs funding, and now there's a hole of billions between what legally needs providing, and what funding has been given out.
Councils are technically on the hook for this accumulated deficit (albeit an accounting fudge has been extended).
School transport is however funded by council tax, and a growing problem. Councils are also get stung for having to fund new school places but not being funded adequately for it.
Still, these problems are nowhere near the scale of childrens social care and growing homelessnees costs.
Back on the topic, imo the UK isn't wealthy enough to fund the first world standard people remember / have read about / expect to get.
There's a host of problems making this worse, and a government needs to urgently address structural problems
- declining productivity
- working age people not working
- education and parental engagement in education /society so the UK will have the right workforce
- curbing wasteful public spend, as well as private sector profiterring
- addressing poor health choices and improving health
With tax, you try and spread it thin so people don't notice. (Ie freezing thresholds is a perfect stealth tax that the Tories have perfected)
But ultimately extra taxes like this garden tax are just a symptom of an economy (or even society) that is not performing well enough to support itself
I don't have answers of course - if I did I would have written a book or something.
(This post could be my first chapter?)
Newc said:
Alternatively you might look at the purpose of council tax, which is to fund the services provided by the local council like rubbish collections and streetlights, and ask how someone's use of those services is in any way related to the value of their house?
(In fact any correlation is likely to be inverse, in that wealthier people tend to use fewer state provided services).
Council tax funds between 30%- 60% of local services depending on historic factors. It simply uses house value as a proxy for wealth. It falls somewhere between a direct usage charge (per adult) and just using income tax to raise all local taxes indirectly.(In fact any correlation is likely to be inverse, in that wealthier people tend to use fewer state provided services).
Totally agree the issue with ctax is lack of valuation, but the south east/London voters would indeed find themselves subsidising the midlands/ north and outlying ethnic regions of our union by virtue of their house price. Will they get any thanks for it? No chance.
Terminator X said:
You think we should pay more? It's already £2.5k for me and I can see nothing for it other than collecting the bins every 2 weeks.
TX.
Well consider yourself lucky then. The vast majority of council spend is for the most needy/vulnerable or those that can't support themselves. Specifically social care and homelessness. TX.
Others have already filled in the gaps in your understanding about council services, so I won't labour it.
BoRED S2upid said:
Councils don’t fund schools that’s central gov. There is no way council tax could cover every school and all the associated costs they can barely cover pothole and collecting the bins!
Mostly yes - the dedicated school grant is passported to councils based broadly on pupil numbers. Academies get money direct from central government.I would just add the Tories completely cocked up high needs funding, and now there's a hole of billions between what legally needs providing, and what funding has been given out.
Councils are technically on the hook for this accumulated deficit (albeit an accounting fudge has been extended).
School transport is however funded by council tax, and a growing problem. Councils are also get stung for having to fund new school places but not being funded adequately for it.
Still, these problems are nowhere near the scale of childrens social care and growing homelessnees costs.
Back on the topic, imo the UK isn't wealthy enough to fund the first world standard people remember / have read about / expect to get.
There's a host of problems making this worse, and a government needs to urgently address structural problems
- declining productivity
- working age people not working
- education and parental engagement in education /society so the UK will have the right workforce
- curbing wasteful public spend, as well as private sector profiterring
- addressing poor health choices and improving health
With tax, you try and spread it thin so people don't notice. (Ie freezing thresholds is a perfect stealth tax that the Tories have perfected)
But ultimately extra taxes like this garden tax are just a symptom of an economy (or even society) that is not performing well enough to support itself
I don't have answers of course - if I did I would have written a book or something.
(This post could be my first chapter?)
simon_harris said:
if you live in a big house with a big garden you are already paying more.
Why does it need a drone survey, the info is all there in the land registry, google maps etc etc etc.
it is an absurd suggestion that needs to go into the bin.
They need to survey it because they need to look how posh it is, then charge you on how arsed you can be to have a nice garden.Why does it need a drone survey, the info is all there in the land registry, google maps etc etc etc.
it is an absurd suggestion that needs to go into the bin.
It’s as sensical as the brick tax or window tax, which saw bizarre brick dimensions and window treatments respectively.
Fake news or not, it wouldn’t surprise me because councils and government have too many chefs and not enough cooks…
Filibustering and confusing people is sufficient activity.
Just thinking about RFD car tax, scrap it and bung 5p on fuel.
Add 10% extra onto EVs as a one-off for them.
Job jobbed. Think of all the people you could sack and save the country money.
Put those people into productive jobs making the country better rather than sapping prosperity for a non-jobs sake.
In reality the Welsh government are carrying out a council tax revaluation. I believe the work is being carried out by the Valuation Office who are part of HMRC. All residential property in Wales is being revalued. The VO are using an automated valuation model to help I believe.
The plan is to work out the capital value of each domestic property then place it on a band. There will be an appeal system.
It’s potentially less of an issue in Wales as you don’t have the extreme highs of house prices that you have in England
The plan is to work out the capital value of each domestic property then place it on a band. There will be an appeal system.
It’s potentially less of an issue in Wales as you don’t have the extreme highs of house prices that you have in England
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