Biden announces increased tariffs on EVs

[Zetec-S]

TheDeuce said:

Zetec-S said:

TheDeuce said:

But so far no one has been able to explain to me why they think China should want to do something like that. They have to find a position of power and influence in order to defend the modern (yet communist - yes) country they're building, it doesn't automatically equate to them wanting to take over the world.

Tell that to people living in Hong Kong or Taiwan.

I'm pretty sure they've already noticed plenty of modernisation - are you just trying to make a point about human rights there as opposed to at home?

You say China doesn't want to take over the world, and yes I would agree with that. But they have eroded peoples rights and freedoms in HK, to the point that it has seen a significant exodus of people (replaced by those who are more "agreeable" from the mainland). Likewise they seem to be keen to do something similar in Taiwan, given the opportunity.

I'm not sure what you mean when referring to modernisation? Until fairly recently at least, HK and Taiwan have always been "ahead" of mainland China.

[TheDeuce]

Zetec-S said:

TheDeuce said:

Zetec-S said:

TheDeuce said:

But so far no one has been able to explain to me why they think China should want to do something like that. They have to find a position of power and influence in order to defend the modern (yet communist - yes) country they're building, it doesn't automatically equate to them wanting to take over the world.

Tell that to people living in Hong Kong or Taiwan.

I'm pretty sure they've already noticed plenty of modernisation - are you just trying to make a point about human rights there as opposed to at home?

You say China doesn't want to take over the world, and yes I would agree with that. But they have eroded peoples rights and freedoms in HK, to the point that it has seen a significant exodus of people (replaced by those who are more "agreeable" from the mainland). Likewise they seem to be keen to do something similar in Taiwan, given the opportunity.

I'm not sure what you mean when referring to modernisation? Until fairly recently at least, HK and Taiwan have always been "ahead" of mainland China.

They're modernising China as a whole, specifically the mainland at the cost of some backward steps in HK. Look at videos from the mainland as recently as the 90's, compared to today. I would say the net quality of life for the average citizen is markedly improved too, again at the expense of a mistreated minority - mistreated by current western standards that is. Go back as little as 100 year in the west and thing's weren't that different, minus the communism.

The Taiwan situation is more complex as they have never accepted Taiwan independence, but also it was hardly a catastrophic loss and probably not worth a war. But now, because of it's monopoly of the semiconductor market, Taiwan has a power than China does not, and it's better for China to have that power - for their own international security. They also have to from relationships with India and Russia for their own security.

Of course, whatever power and connections brings security can also be used offensively - but we appear to agree that there is little reason for them to want to behave aggressively.

[NRS]

All big powers behave aggressively - China is already doing this with the Belts and Roads stuff - invest in a country and get a good return if they pay you back, if they don't take parts of the infrastructure or land of that country and expand your influence around the world.

It's not different from the US, but if the west don't stand up now they'll probably cross the point of being able to do anything later. That might not be an issue, but if it is then we're too late.

[isaldiri]

cjcor said:

It is true that they no longer act meekly and take everything lying down as they used to. The demonization of China started around 2014, which coincided with their GDP exceeding that of the US (PPP). It was bound to happen anyway, that's how great power politics work.

Yup - pretty much that. China was never going to meekly fall in line with the 'international rules based order' (as set by... the US) once their own economic and military clout reached the point when they could be setting the terms of the game and ordering things in their ever growing area of influence as they pleased.

[TheDeuce]

NRS said:

All big powers behave aggressively - China is already doing this with the Belts and Roads stuff - invest in a country and get a good return if they pay you back, if they don't take parts of the infrastructure or land of that country and expand your influence around the world.

It's not different from the US, but if the west don't stand up now they'll probably cross the point of being able to do anything later. That might not be an issue, but if it is then we're too late.

If by 'stand up' you mean prevent a country in the east from having the same level of power as those in the west then... I can see why the Chinese might think that playing field should be levelled a little.

And to be clear I'm not saying that China won't act aggressively to shore up it's own interests and security. I'm saying there is no reason to think they want to go beyond that and start to try and conquer or bend the rest of the planet to their will.

The most likely outcome is that they want to be strong enough to not be messed with or manipulated by the west, and once they have that (they arguably already do..) it's a kind of checkmate. The world will have another fully established super power, unable and likely unwilling to attempt to take on the others.

superpower definition is pretty weak, some would say it's only the USA, others would say NATO countries are a collective superpower etc - but it boils down to who's got nuclear capability and enough friends to back them up in minor scuffles.

[isaldiri]

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

[cookie1600]

I bet he wouldn't put a 100% tariff on I-Phones made in China, Vietnam, and India. That would stir things up with the electorate.

[TheDeuce]

isaldiri said:

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

They can become as strong as the US

They can't do what the US (and us) have done as when we did those things, it wasn't vs another equal super power.

Hence my comment about effectively reaching checkmate. I'm not being naïve, I'm just not over simplifying things to good/bad or aggressive/defensive. It's far more complex than that.

[isaldiri]

TheDeuce said:

isaldiri said:

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

They can become as strong as the US

They can't do what the US (and us) have done as when we did those things, it wasn't vs another equal super power.

Hence my comment about effectively reaching checkmate. I'm not being naïve, I'm just not over simplifying things to good/bad or aggressive/defensive. It's far more complex than that.

Just how do you figure that? Look at what's happening in the south china sea. China is becoming increasingly assertive around the spratlys because... well they rather fancy that bit of the south china sea and are more or less (probably rightly) relying on the fact that the US will at some point not think it's worth it to be helping out the Phillipines in preventing a takeover of the area now that china won't so easily be cowed by threats from them. The chinese would likely term that as just 'shoring up their interests' - well, the rest of the southeast asian countries are unlikely to agree that it's merely that and would quite reasonably think that it's part of the longer term chinese plan to bend them over.

China might not be able to dominate the globe the way the US did post 1945, more out of lack of capability rather than desire I might add, but they most certainly are going to do their damndest to bend their neighbours to their will as they become more able to do so.

[TheDeuce]

isaldiri said:

TheDeuce said:

isaldiri said:

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

They can become as strong as the US

They can't do what the US (and us) have done as when we did those things, it wasn't vs another equal super power.

Hence my comment about effectively reaching checkmate. I'm not being naïve, I'm just not over simplifying things to good/bad or aggressive/defensive. It's far more complex than that.

Just how do you figure that? Look at what's happening in the south china sea. China is becoming increasingly assertive around the spratlys because... well they rather fancy that bit of the south china sea and are more or less (probably rightly) relying on the fact that the US will at some point not think it's worth it to be helping out the Phillipines in preventing a takeover of the area now that china won't so easily be cowed by threats from them. The chinese would likely term that as just 'shoring up their interests' - well, the rest of the southeast asian countries are unlikely to agree that it's merely that and would quite reasonably think that it's part of the longer term chinese plan to bend them over.

China might not be able to dominate the globe the way the US did post 1945, more out of lack of capability rather than desire I might add, but they most certainly are going to do their damndest to bend their neighbours to their will as they become more able to do so.

Well of course they are. That doesn't conflict with anything I have said.

The Chinese have no reason to be a threat to the West. They have every reason to cement themselves as a super power however, whatever that takes - given the way they've been used and manipulated by the established western powers for over a century. Of course they'll do that.

Our right to criticise is zero. My point was in relation to concerns the west have about China growing 'too' strong, I don't think that relative to the west they will, or need to.

[isaldiri]

TheDeuce said:

Well of course they are. That doesn't conflict with anything I have said.

The Chinese have no reason to be a threat to the West. They have every reason to cement themselves as a super power however, whatever that takes - given the way they've been used and manipulated by the established western powers for over a century. Of course they'll do that.

Our right to criticise is zero. My point was in relation to concerns the west have about China growing 'too' strong, I don't think that relative to the west they will, or need to.

Cementing themselves as a superpower is and will be perceived as a threat to the west if they choose not to meekly align themselves with the superpower that is on the side of the western countries ie the US. 'Growing too strong' for us simply means china not having to do the latter.

That - as seen by chinese moves to secure resources and to dominate their surrounding areas absolutely is a concern because no one is keen on having upstarts after all.

[s1962a]

Zetec-S said:

You say China doesn't want to take over the world, and yes I would agree with that. But they have eroded peoples rights and freedoms in HK, to the point that it has seen a significant exodus of people (replaced by those who are more "agreeable" from the mainland). Likewise they seem to be keen to do something similar in Taiwan, given the opportunity.

I'm not sure what you mean when referring to modernisation? Until fairly recently at least, HK and Taiwan have always been "ahead" of mainland China.

And look at how they at they are treating the Uighurs, with talks of concentration camps and forced labour. I didn't know you cared so much about human rights.

[TheDeuce]

isaldiri said:

TheDeuce said:

Well of course they are. That doesn't conflict with anything I have said.

The Chinese have no reason to be a threat to the West. They have every reason to cement themselves as a super power however, whatever that takes - given the way they've been used and manipulated by the established western powers for over a century. Of course they'll do that.

Our right to criticise is zero. My point was in relation to concerns the west have about China growing 'too' strong, I don't think that relative to the west they will, or need to.

Cementing themselves as a superpower is and will be perceived as a threat to the west if they choose not to meekly align themselves with the superpower that is on the side of the western countries ie the US. 'Growing too strong' for us simply means china not having to do the latter.

That - as seen by chinese moves to secure resources and to dominate their surrounding areas absolutely is a concern because no one is keen on having upstarts after all.

Again, we agree that no one is keen on them rising up as 'upstarts'. But they can and will, which is why they're aligning themselves with anti western states - together they're stronger.

The west doesn't want that because it's been hugely convenient to shunt our dirty manufacturing to a place where the labour rates are a fraction of at home, so everyone in the west gets lots of cheap stuff - such as us, as we type in this debate on our phones/computers.. But to maintain that status quo the west has had to use all sorts of tricks to try and keep the Chinese subdued. Those days are now drawing to a close, they can't be subdued any longer.

The west doesn't want or like that, but it is what it is. And it WILL be described politically as a 'threat' to the west for sure. But I don't think it is, unless we call China standing on it's own feet and telling the west to politely ps off a threat?

I don't personally see it as reasonable to forever seek to keep a country pegged down 'in case' it is a threat one day. I also see nothing to suggest the Chinese want to be a threat to the west. They want to grow as China and be strong enough to no longer be manipulated by the west - is part of that unfair?

[isaldiri]

TheDeuce said:

Again, we agree that no one is keen on them rising up as 'upstarts'. But they can and will, which is why they're aligning themselves with anti western states - together they're stronger.

The west doesn't want that because it's been hugely convenient to shunt our dirty manufacturing to a place where the labour rates are a fraction of at home, so everyone in the west gets lots of cheap stuff - such as us, as we type in this debate on our phones/computers.. But to maintain that status quo the west has had to use all sorts of tricks to try and keep the Chinese subdued. Those days are now drawing to a close, they can't be subdued any longer.

The west doesn't want or like that, but it is what it is. And it WILL be described politically as a 'threat' to the west for sure. But I don't think it is, unless we call China standing on it's own feet and telling the west to politely ps off a threat?

I don't personally see it as reasonable to forever seek to keep a country pegged down 'in case' it is a threat one day. I also see nothing to suggest the Chinese want to be a threat to the west. They want to grow as China and be strong enough to no longer be manipulated by the west - is part of that unfair?

Well, the point being made is that China standing on it's own feet and telling the west to politely ps off is clearly deemed as a threat by western countries. Just look at China providing various support/help to Russia. Whether or not it's unfair or something we are unable to prevent is neither here nor there.

As I keep on saying but you seem to ignore, the very fact that china is strong enough to decide as they deem best and not be manipulated or meekly toe the US line means that they are a threat to us because those interests are definitely not going to always be aligned.

[ATG]

isaldiri said:

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

Trying to equate Chinese and US action and influence abroad is fundamentally flawed. The motivation is not the same at all. The behaviour is very different.

[isaldiri]

ATG said:

isaldiri said:

If you don't think that 'shoring up it's own interests and security' as countries become ever more powerful have a funny habit of blending into 'bending the rest of the planet or at least bending the rest of it's neighbours to their will', you are being wilfully naive because human nature isn't going to change. The chinese will do exactly as the US and all the other major powers have done because they can. If they can being the major unknown.....

Trying to equate Chinese and US action and influence abroad is fundamentally flawed. The motivation is not the same at all. The behaviour is very different.

Given that the US actions and influence abroad has probably caused far more death and destruction around the world in recent history than china, yes I suppose perhaps equating them is fundamentally flawed even if we here perceive chinese influence to be far more malign.

Is the motivation all that different? It boils down to what's perceived to be in their own self interest after all. The varying degrees of unpleasantness involved is then more a function of what each country thinks they can get away with and what they reckon is actually needed to do get their way.

[BikeBikeBIke]

isaldiri said:

Given that the US actions and influence abroad has probably caused far more death and destruction around the world in recent history than china, yes I suppose perhaps equating them is fundamentally flawed even if we here perceive chinese influence to be far more malign.

Is the motivation all that different? It boils down to what's perceived to be in their own self interest after all. The varying degrees of unpleasantness involved is then more a function of what each country thinks they can get away with and what they reckon is actually needed to do get their way.

The Liberal democracies self interest is to keep/make the whole world free so no small group of despots can destroy our happy way of life to line their own pockets.

The Fascist self interest is to prevent people being free and happy so they can maintain their own positions at the top of their little empires.

What you're arguing is that criminals and policemen are the same becaise they're both making the world the way they want it.

The great news is if you think Iran/NK/Russia/China are equivalent to us you can go there becaise those places are so god awful there's no restrictions stopping you. Meanwhile the entire world wants to come to the western liberal democracies to the point where we actually have to try to stop them.

HTH.

[swisstoni]

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

[BikeBikeBIke]

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

[swisstoni]

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

We would if prices went up.