CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)

[r3g]

Elysium said:

jshell said:

The deatils of the deals, cash, GoF and design to make it more infectious to humans has been known for years now. But, the change os that some of the media are actually covering it instead of running cover for the authorities.

On your last point, I firmly believe that the lockdowns on top of the faked vidoes from China and the faked scare stories from Italy were at best part of a societal experiment. We failed.

Add to that vaccines that proved ineffective for anyone under 70 that wasn't already carrying some illness/disability, then it's a malign motivation.

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

"Something of a mystery". The answer is right there in Shell's post.

[jshell]

Elysium said:

jshell said:

The deatils of the deals, cash, GoF and design to make it more infectious to humans has been known for years now. But, the change os that some of the media are actually covering it instead of running cover for the authorities.

On your last point, I firmly believe that the lockdowns on top of the faked vidoes from China and the faked scare stories from Italy were at best part of a societal experiment. We failed.

Add to that vaccines that proved ineffective for anyone under 70 that wasn't already carrying some illness/disability, then it's a malign motivation.

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Most of it is media supressed or just plain memory-holed. I still remember some of the blatant propaganda from Bergamo, chief amogst it being the 're-purposing' a photo of avalanche victims as Covid victims with a mysterious location change. This was utterly corrupt and peddled by the media:

[Elysium]

jshell said:

Elysium said:

jshell said:

The deatils of the deals, cash, GoF and design to make it more infectious to humans has been known for years now. But, the change os that some of the media are actually covering it instead of running cover for the authorities.

On your last point, I firmly believe that the lockdowns on top of the faked vidoes from China and the faked scare stories from Italy were at best part of a societal experiment. We failed.

Add to that vaccines that proved ineffective for anyone under 70 that wasn't already carrying some illness/disability, then it's a malign motivation.

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Most of it is media supressed or just plain memory-holed. I still remember some of the blatant propaganda from Bergamo, chief amogst it being the 're-purposing' a photo of avalanche victims as Covid victims with a mysterious location change. This was utterly corrupt and peddled by the media:

This was driven by hysteria. A lot of this stuff happened initially on social media, but was amplified by commercial media companies who were looking desperately for the big story they wanted to tell:

It's fascinating to look back at this Reuters fact check, which confirms that the wrong images were used.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN21F0XK/

But then you can go here and see that they found the images they were looking for anyway:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavi...

Questions remain about what actually happened in Bergamo. Was it as bad as the media portrayed or was it hysteria? If it was that bad there and in New York, why did Sweden not suffer the same fate?

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

Questions remain about what actually happened in Bergamo. Was it as bad as the media portrayed or was it hysteria? If it was that bad there and in New York, why did Sweden not suffer the same fate?

I'm not sure they are many questions. It absolutely was as bad as the media portrayed because total deaths in some regions increased by rather impressive amount.

Looking at this

https://www.istat.it/storage/dati_mortalita/tabell...

from the italian institute of statistics, there was far less variation in total deaths after that initial March/April 2020 period over the rest of the pandemic in Bergamo, certainly compared to the rest of the regions especially into winter of 2020 and then again in early spring 2021.

For whatever reason, Bergamo does actually seem to have a very large proportion of the population having been infected and impacted early on and therefore was not particularly susceptible thereafter.

Sweden never got impacted to the same degree because the % of infected just wasn't anything like in Bergamo.

[r3g]

isaldiri said:

I'm not sure they are many questions. It absolutely was as bad as the media portrayed

Do behave please.

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

Questions remain about what actually happened in Bergamo. Was it as bad as the media portrayed or was it hysteria? If it was that bad there and in New York, why did Sweden not suffer the same fate?

I'm not sure they are many questions. It absolutely was as bad as the media portrayed because total deaths in some regions increased by rather impressive amount.

Looking at this

https://www.istat.it/storage/dati_mortalita/tabell...

from the italian institute of statistics, there was far less variation in total deaths after that initial March/April 2020 period over the rest of the pandemic in Bergamo, certainly compared to the rest of the regions especially into winter of 2020 and then again in early spring 2021.

For whatever reason, Bergamo does actually seem to have a very large proportion of the population having been infected and impacted early on and therefore was not particularly susceptible thereafter.

Sweden never got impacted to the same degree because the % of infected just wasn't anything like in Bergamo.

There is something we don’t understand though. New York and Bergamo were affected early and a much larger proportion of people died than we saw in other geographies.

Similarly, in the UK we saw a reasonable number of serious illnesses in healthcare professionals in that first wave.

Neither of these things repeated later, at least not on the same scale.

It doesn’t seem to me that this is just down to a large number of infections in an immunologically naive population. Something else is in play. It’s been suggested that classification of causes of death was a large part of the problem in New York. But we still don’t really know why the situation in Bergamo became so bad so quickly.

My view at this point is that our early treatment protocols may have actually been quite harmful. There was a document produced by the ‘medics of Wuhan’ which had a bunch of smiley Chinese people pictured and set out some of the treatments they had found to work. I’ve looked for it more recently but can’t find it.

I do remember the ER doctor in New York though who said intubation was doing more harm than good.

I am not suggesting there is blame here. It’s just odd still that these initial interactions with COVID seemed so much more severe for younger people.

[jameswills]

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

[Elysium]

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

[jameswills]

Elysium said:

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

When was that? We weren’t allowed in the barbers for 4 months. So in that time he was intubated, then recovered and recounted his story to you?

Did you follow what his life was like during that period?

If you don’t call bullst on this, you’ve got to question your own sanity. Or….. you’re making stuff up.

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

There is something we don’t understand though. New York and Bergamo were affected early and a much larger proportion of people died than we saw in other geographies.

Similarly, in the UK we saw a reasonable number of serious illnesses in healthcare professionals in that first wave.

Neither of these things repeated later, at least not on the same scale.

It doesn’t seem to me that this is just down to a large number of infections in an immunologically naive population. Something else is in play. It’s been suggested that classification of causes of death was a large part of the problem in New York. But we still don’t really know why the situation in Bergamo became so bad so quickly.

My view at this point is that our early treatment protocols may have actually been quite harmful. There was a document produced by the ‘medics of Wuhan’ which had a bunch of smiley Chinese people pictured and set out some of the treatments they had found to work. I’ve looked for it more recently but can’t find it.

I do remember the ER doctor in New York though who said intubation was doing more harm than good.

I am not suggesting there is blame here. It’s just odd still that these initial interactions with COVID seemed so much more severe for younger people.

My take is that a much larger proportion of people died in bergamo and things became much more serious because much more of the population were infected in that first wave compared to say London or other regions of italy. No idea why that might have been so but the level of deaths over winter 2020/21 subsequently imo does point to that and total deaths exclude any classification issues. That level/proportion of deaths was then not subsequently repeated elsewhere as covid more fully pass throug the population as by then, the vaccines had provided first exposure so it was relatively less serious when infected amongst the elderly (pre omicron anyway as after which the severity was significantly reduced anyway). Not sure about NY though so if i have the time later I'll have a closer look if it seems similar to bergamo/Lombardy.

While i don't at all disagree that early treatment protocols especially wrt to invasive ventilation might well have made things worse - but it also doesn't change that many were needing that additional emergency treatment in the first place. which kind of brings me back to the point that a (potentially much) greater proportion of people there did get infected early compared to other places.

Don't have much of an opinion re healthcare professional infections though as I don't think much is at all clear on that, even now. I wonder though if it's not a combination of reporting of what was obviously an extremely stressful situation for some of them at the coalface plus the suggestion as made by some scientists that initial infection dose being received by those was likely far higher early on without all the later precautions so would mean a more severe case if then infected.

As far as the rest of the younger general population having a bit severe time with covid early is concerned though, that was imo far more a case of intentional exaggeration of severity in that group by the public health authorities to better urge compliance because there was clear evidence right from the start that the younger age groups were going to be very much less affected per early wuhan data.

[jameswills]

I think you’ve all lost the plot and forgotten what happened in 2020. What I’ve read above is not at all what happened in real life. Do you actually believe it?

[andyeds1234]

Elysium said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

I honestly think you are attempting a discussion with someone who would benefit from discussing his thoughts with a caring professional.

[Challo]

andyeds1234 said:

Elysium said:

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

I honestly think you are attempting a discussion with someone who would benefit from discussing his thoughts with a caring professional.

I'm sure he is just trolling now

[r3g]

jameswills said:

I think you’ve all lost the plot and forgotten what happened in 2020. What I’ve read above is not at all what happened in real life. Do you actually believe it?

It's quite bizarre reading these recent posts. It's like they've been memory-holed for the fraud, lies and blindingly obvious BS that's transpired over the last 4 years and are now posting from May 2020 again telling everyone there's a very serious, scary and deadly virus out there, listen to the media and do what the government says, all over again !

They've both completely lost the plot. This thread has just turned into an extension of the other one now. No questioning or pointing out any of the gaping holes in the narrative allowed, just listen to the mainstream media and trust the "fact-checker" sites as they are your (collective) single source of truth now.

Are we actually being trolled here, or are they definitely being serious ?? I am beginning to wonder.

[ruggedscotty]

Hmmmmm

[isaldiri]

andyeds1234 said:

I honestly think you are attempting a discussion with someone who would benefit from discussing his thoughts with a caring professional.

If you truly think so, I wonder why you continue to insist on dropping all those jibes as I wouldn't personally be quite so comfortable knowing I was intentionally goading someone who was that troubled. Ymmv though.

[Elysium]

isaldiri said:

Elysium said:

There is something we don’t understand though. New York and Bergamo were affected early and a much larger proportion of people died than we saw in other geographies.

Similarly, in the UK we saw a reasonable number of serious illnesses in healthcare professionals in that first wave.

Neither of these things repeated later, at least not on the same scale.

It doesn’t seem to me that this is just down to a large number of infections in an immunologically naive population. Something else is in play. It’s been suggested that classification of causes of death was a large part of the problem in New York. But we still don’t really know why the situation in Bergamo became so bad so quickly.

My view at this point is that our early treatment protocols may have actually been quite harmful. There was a document produced by the ‘medics of Wuhan’ which had a bunch of smiley Chinese people pictured and set out some of the treatments they had found to work. I’ve looked for it more recently but can’t find it.

I do remember the ER doctor in New York though who said intubation was doing more harm than good.

I am not suggesting there is blame here. It’s just odd still that these initial interactions with COVID seemed so much more severe for younger people.

My take is that a much larger proportion of people died in bergamo and things became much more serious because much more of the population were infected in that first wave compared to say London or other regions of italy. No idea why that might have been so but the level of deaths over winter 2020/21 subsequently imo does point to that and total deaths exclude any classification issues. That level/proportion of deaths was then not subsequently repeated elsewhere as covid more fully pass throug the population as by then, the vaccines had provided first exposure so it was relatively less serious when infected amongst the elderly (pre omicron anyway as after which the severity was significantly reduced anyway). Not sure about NY though so if i have the time later I'll have a closer look if it seems similar to bergamo/Lombardy.

While i don't at all disagree that early treatment protocols especially wrt to invasive ventilation might well have made things worse - but it also doesn't change that many were needing that additional emergency treatment in the first place. which kind of brings me back to the point that a (potentially much) greater proportion of people there did get infected early compared to other places.

Don't have much of an opinion re healthcare professional infections though as I don't think much is at all clear on that, even now. I wonder though if it's not a combination of reporting of what was obviously an extremely stressful situation for some of them at the coalface plus the suggestion as made by some scientists that initial infection dose being received by those was likely far higher early on without all the later precautions so would mean a more severe case if then infected.

As far as the rest of the younger general population having a bit severe time with covid early is concerned though, that was imo far more a case of intentional exaggeration of severity in that group by the public health authorities to better urge compliance because there was clear evidence right from the start that the younger age groups were going to be very much less affected per early wuhan data.

It does make sense that the Bergamo death toll might be due to a wave of infection affecting a large proportion of the population.

That would point to it having started rather earlier than thought. I do remember that at the time it was reported that the region had a high population of Chinese immigrants working in manufacturing industries.

I do also tend to agree that reporting bias could explain the rather hysterical presentation of the risks to younger people early in the pandemic compared to what later followed.

It’s difficult because the numbers are small, but of course any death of a medic in that first wave was massive news.

[Elysium]

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

So the young chap I met in the barbers who was shuffling around like an old man after being intubated for a month didn’t exist?

When was that? We weren’t allowed in the barbers for 4 months. So in that time he was intubated, then recovered and recounted his story to you?

Did you follow what his life was like during that period?

If you don’t call bullst on this, you’ve got to question your own sanity. Or….. you’re making stuff up.

This was someone I met when the barbers first reopened. The guy was late twenties, had caught COVID and ended up in hospital on a ventilator for over a month.

The state he was in rather shocked me and caused me to look into the damage intubation does.

[MG CHRIS]

jameswills said:

Elysium said:

It is fascinating that there is very little discussion of the bizarre videos from China that emerged in the early days.

The number of deaths in Bergamo and New York are also still something of a mystery, although there are people looking into the New York numbers.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-mystery-why...

45,000 deaths in a population of 8.5million equates to a population fatality rate of 0.5%. About 70% higher than the UK.

Or none of it happened. That’s the actual truth. When we looked out the window in 2020, did anyone see people dying in the streets? How many of your friends and relatives died or were even remotely ill in that time? For me, none.

Guy over the street from me came back from italy end of feb within half a week he become seriously unwell went to hospital spent nearly 8 weeks in icu. He then spent the rest of the year building back up his health. Hes half the man he was before getting infected. Your sample of a few people means nothing really just the same as my sample of one who was seriously unwell mean nothing compared to the millions of others that have had it and survived.

[isaldiri]

Elysium said:

It does make sense that the Bergamo death toll might be due to a wave of infection affecting a large proportion of the population.

That would point to it having started rather earlier than thought. I do remember that at the time it was reported that the region had a high population of Chinese immigrants working in manufacturing industries.

Not really sure it started earlier than thought either tbh. The istat data shows all the deaths heavily concentrated in March and April 2020. If covid has started much earlier, the deaths would have shown up before then.

I tend to think the early reports about chinese immigrants were ultimately incorrect as well tbh - while I certainly did believe that initially when the UK was being touted as being '2 weeks behind' (which I wrongly as it turned out didn't agree with) but looking back at things later without the lens of some quite fevered speculation at that time, given what happened in Madrid and parts of London and indeed Cremona (seemingly very different economic characteristics to Bergamo despite proximity and no obvious Chinese manufacturing link that stands to scrutiny), it seems more a case of circumstances being favourable for large scale infections (crowded indoor spaces with infections then spilling over into households/care homes). for whatever reason, Bergamo/Cremona (almost as hard hit in spring2020) just got those circumstances where it passed through most of the population very early and very quickly.