The **BOXING** thread (Vol 4)

[tuscaneer]

Pugaris said:

tuscaneer said:

If usyk goes now I wonder where he stands on the atg list.... People will use the relatively small number of fights against him but fk me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....

You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?

He'd be much higher up my fantasy H2H list than my Greatest lists

For HW specifically, I think if he retired today he'd be in the 5-10 range. Competing with guys like Wlad, Tunney, Tyson, Liston, Holyfield, Fraizer, Marciano, Dempsey etc.

Can make a case he's ahead of all of those, I'd probably say Holyfield and Marciano edge him, but he he's behind Louis, Lewis, Ali, Holmes, Foreman (no particular order intended for those)

If we are talking P4P and looking at his CW accolades and giving a little weighting to his amateur record, too, well he's certainly up there for representatives from the 21st century. He's not as high as Manny and Floyd, who are both fringe top 10, but you can make a case he's as high or higher than people like Chocolatito, De La Hoya, Canelo, Ward, Golovkin, Calzaghe etc.

That probably puts him, I don't know? 25th-35th ish?

Even if he carries on, I don't think he has the competition to really push on loads further.

Head to head though, well there's very few HWs he could face and I'd bet against him

Yeah...still mulling it over but agreed he's a head to head nightmare for anyone in history in the same you'd say vitali would be a proper handful for anyone

[fridaypassion]

The only honourable thing a Fury has ever done was give McDermott a rematch....

[tuscaneer]

Unreal said:

tuscaneer said:

If usyk goes now I wonder where he stands on the atg list.... People will use the relatively small number of fights against him but fk me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....

You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?

Top 5 ATG. No question. Won everything. Ducked no-one. Unbeaten. Never on the floor.

Plenty of fighters burn bright but only for a short while . Longevity has to be part of the ranking.

Who is up with him? For me Ali, Floyd, Rocky and Dempsey, with Joe Louis, Lennox, Sugar Ray, Leonard, Hagler and Duran making up the table.

He's definitely quality over quantity..but then we'll never see another era where someone like harry grab can have DOZENS of title fights in a single year... The sheer volume of quality opposition that sugar ray Robinson fought will never happen again

[tuscaneer]

fridaypassion said:

The only honourable thing a Fury has ever done was give McDermott a rematch....

Would have been interesting to see the John McDermott of the first fight turn up again but his head had gone at that point

[fridaypassion]

tuscaneer said:

Would have been interesting to see the John McDermott of the first fight turn up again but his head had gone at that point

Its up there on the disappointing rematch list isn't it!?

[tuscaneer]

fridaypassion said:

tuscaneer said:

Would have been interesting to see the John McDermott of the first fight turn up again but his head had gone at that point

Its up there on the disappointing rematch list isn't it!?

Haha!!. Pretty high up it!

[StuTheGrouch]

tuscaneer said:

If usyk goes now I wonder where he stands on the atg list.... People will use the relatively small number of fights against him but fk me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....

You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?

Longevity (or number of fights) seems to be a major factor in 'best of all time' lists. I think he ranks very highly in that we will likely be talking about him in 10-15 years. What he has achieved is unlikely to be repeated for a long time.

Another acid test. If Usyk was going to be at a signing event, say in Milton Keynes, would Tusc tell any of us about it?

[tuscaneer]

StuTheGrouch said:

tuscaneer said:

If usyk goes now I wonder where he stands on the atg list.... People will use the relatively small number of fights against him but fk me...... Dominated the strongest ever cruiserweight field, and then beat the perceived top 2 heavyweights of his time hoovering up all the belts in both divisions... Undisputed twice after one of the best ever amateur careers....

You've got to have him up in the rarified air haven't you?

Longevity (or number of fights) seems to be a major factor in 'best of all time' lists. I think he ranks very highly in that we will likely be talking about him in 10-15 years. What he has achieved is unlikely to be repeated for a long time.

Another acid test. If Usyk was going to be at a signing event, say in Milton Keynes, would Tusc tell any of us about it?

not only would i tell you... i'd pick you up on the way an all!!


yeah, despite his relatively small number of fights the quality of his work and opposition counter that.... i do agree, longevity and consistency are major factors in where i rank fighters on atg lists normally but usyk just hasn't put a foot wrong so far

[Pugaris]

SmoothCriminal said:

I can't work out Fury's game plan during the fight.

The body shots were hurting Uysk yet he kept disengaging and letting Uysk box him into the ropes.

Maybe he was listening to his gobste dad as I'm sure I heard them saying after he nearly got flopped that he was winning the match.

Apparently any rematch won't be for undisputed because the IBF are going to strip the belt for not facing their mandatory?

Keep it long, punish Usyk for trying to get into mid range as often as possible, slow him down with good work to the body, showboat in any close rounds to influence the judges. That's what it looked like to me and about what I expected from him, think it was his best chance of winning

Things that meant it failed:

1. You can't do the same thing to Usyk too much. The body punches worked well for 3 rounds, but after that Usyk was dialled into him. He was either taking them as a sacrifice to land his own punches, or anticipating them and catching Fury flush with his hands down. This is how he nearly stopped Fury, he hit Fury with a perfect shot at the moment Usyk knew Fury would be looking to throw to the body. Fury realized in the 8th round that if he threw those shots too much, he'd get punished for it so he was more tentative, then still got caught in the 9th

2. Fury doesn't have the power to dissuade Usyk - in rounds 4, 5 and 6 Fury used the uppercut really well whenever Usyk tried to come into mid range and it caused Usyk to step back, abandon attack and recalculate. Once he'd eaten 3 of them and knew he could take them, that stopped happening. The uppercut became the cost of getting into mid range and instead of backing off, Usyk threw with it and threw after it. This discouraged Fury from using it because it left him defensively vulnerable. The same goes for Fury's jab here, if AJ had been able to land his jab like Fury was, it might have been very effective because the combination of AJ power and Fury accuracy and reach might have been too much, but Usyk could work off the jab of Fury even when it did land.

3. Fury didn't have the movement or reflexive defence to implement the game plan effectively. He was able to do so in spurts, but particularly as he tired, he just couldn't stay light enough on his feet or stop Usyk effectively cut off the ring with that outside foot pressure. Usyk was hunting him down relentlessly, and Fury's movement had no answer for it, hence spending so much time on the ropes.

4. Fury couldn't effectively clinch. If you can't do number 3, you need to be able to spoil the fight and grab your opponent when they close in. Fury couldn't do this. Usyk was landing shots when he tried, moving to his side, slipping up when Fury did manage to grab him so Usyk was over Fury, not being leant on, and on a couple of occasions Usyk showed how strong he is by just throwing Fury off of him. The ref also helped here, breaking them up quickly.

[Pugaris]

tuscaneer said:

Missed this yesterday..

Yeah, totally get the Joshua thing.. it's not as seemingly natural as someone like fury.... But also, i remember a really young fury making waves as an amateur...first time I saw him I thought he looked terrible...dead jerky jerky and definitely no Larry Holmes straight out the box!... By the time he was a pro he still didn't look great to me, John McDermott beat him well with the basics in that first fight

He improved massively when he stopped working with his Dad and went to his uncle, which I think was after the first McDermott fight.

He hasn't had his Dad back in his corner since, until this weekend...

[tuscaneer]

Pugaris said:

tuscaneer said:

Missed this yesterday..

Yeah, totally get the Joshua thing.. it's not as seemingly natural as someone like fury.... But also, i remember a really young fury making waves as an amateur...first time I saw him I thought he looked terrible...dead jerky jerky and definitely no Larry Holmes straight out the box!... By the time he was a pro he still didn't look great to me, John McDermott beat him well with the basics in that first fight

He improved massively when he stopped working with his Dad and went to his uncle, which I think was after the first McDermott fight.

He hasn't had his Dad back in his corner since, until this weekend...

Peter definitely more a considered thinker than John .. actually quite a clued up and shrewd trainer... Very measured

[philv]

A rematch will be interesting.
Usyk knows he has the power to stop fury.

Re the 9th, i accept what the rules are.
But does anyone recall standing counts in such curcumstances?

[Pugaris]

philv said:

A rematch will be interesting.
Usyk knows he has the power to stop fury.

Re the 9th, i accept what the rules are.
But does anyone recall standing counts in such curcumstances?

It wasn't a standing 8 count. They don't exist in pro boxing anymore

The ref called a knockdown because he was held up by only the ropes. That is considered (at ref's discretion) a knockdown.

Fury was given a mandatory 8 count, as you do for any knockdown. Had he still been slumped on the ropes, the count would have gone to 10 and he'd have been counted out.

I didn't like that he was clearly not able to follow instructions after the count though, ref asked him to walk towards him and he didn't, so ref just went to Fury instead.

I've definitely seen several knockdowns called when someone is held up by the ropes, can't recall which fight off the top of my head, but I've also seen it not called a hell of a lot more.

[philv]

Pugaris said:

It wasn't a standing 8 count. They don't exist in pro boxing anymore

The ref called a knockdown because he was held up by only the ropes. That is considered (at ref's discretion) a knockdown.

Fury was given a mandatory 8 count, as you do for any knockdown. Had he still been slumped on the ropes, the count would have gone to 10 and he'd have been counted out.

I didn't like that he was clearly not able to follow instructions after the count though, ref asked him to walk towards him and he didn't, so ref just went to Fury instead.

I've definitely seen several knockdowns called when someone is held up by the ropes, can't recall which fight off the top of my head, but I've also seen it not called a hell of a lot more.

Thanks.
I only tend to watch the big fights so wasn't sure.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Pugaris said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

It's crazy. 1st round, really close, boxer A shades it. 2nd round the same, 3rd round, boxer B beats the living daylights out of boxer A, who just about stays on his feet. The result of those rounds, boxer A, who can barely stand up, wins 29-28.

3rd round, as you've described, can be and should be scored 10-8

Without a knock down? As I said, boxer A stays on his feet. I know it can be scored 10-8 but rarely is. And even if it was, let's make it 3 close rounds where boxer A just shaded it and the 4th round where boxer B beats him to a pulp. Even with the 10-8, boxer A wins 38-37.

Why have this ridiculous system. Why can't the judges just score each round as they see fit. Hearns Hagler 1st round 1985, 10-10. But many first rounds that are cagey affairs, 4-3, or 3-1, or whatever. Round 9 of Usyk Fury would have been 8-2 or something.

[Pugaris]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Without a knock down? As I said, boxer A stays on his feet. I know it can be scored 10-8 but rarely is. And even if it was, let's make it 3 close rounds where boxer A just shaded it and the 4th round where boxer B beats him to a pulp. Even with the 10-8, boxer A wins 38-37.

Why have this ridiculous system. Why can't the judges just score each round as they see fit. Hearns Hagler 1st round 1985, 10-10. But many first rounds that are cagey affairs, 4-3, or 3-1, or whatever. Round 9 of Usyk Fury would have been 8-2 or something.

The Leonard Hearns rematch is a good example here - all 3 judges scored the 5th round 10-7 to Leonard (as they should) despite there being no knockdown.

I think the scoring system you're describing is so much more open to corruption, because you can 'correct' a scorecard at any time and subtly give rounds for one fighter wider than the other, to guarantee they win.

With your scoring system, it would have been much easier to give Fury the win last night without it looking like a blatantly bought and paid for scorecard. Lots of 1 point wins for Usyk, give those middle rounds super wide for Fury, adjust the 12th round score to make sure he wins if necessary.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the scoring system, there's a problem with the incentives of promoters and therefore judges that can't be fixed with a new scoring system.

[andburg]

let's face it the scoring per round may aswell be,

Win round - 1 point
lose round - 0 points
draw - both fighters get 1 point

Knockdown or counts - 1 bonus point

The whole 10 and then you lose points is a relic and confuses many an armchair viewer

Agreed with above, allowing it to be even more subjective introduces much more opportunity for rigging

[Unreal]

Pugaris said:

The Leonard Hearns rematch is a good example here - all 3 judges scored the 5th round 10-7 to Leonard (as they should) despite there being no knockdown.

I think the scoring system you're describing is so much more open to corruption, because you can 'correct' a scorecard at any time and subtly give rounds for one fighter wider than the other, to guarantee they win.

With your scoring system, it would have been much easier to give Fury the win last night without it looking like a blatantly bought and paid for scorecard. Lots of 1 point wins for Usyk, give those middle rounds super wide for Fury, adjust the 12th round score to make sure he wins if necessary.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the scoring system, there's a problem with the incentives of promoters and therefore judges that can't be fixed with a new scoring system.

I agree the system is fine. Abuse, incompetence and corruption are the issue.

[ofcorsa]

Pugaris said:

SmoothCriminal said:

I can't work out Fury's game plan during the fight.

The body shots were hurting Uysk yet he kept disengaging and letting Uysk box him into the ropes.

Maybe he was listening to his gobste dad as I'm sure I heard them saying after he nearly got flopped that he was winning the match.

Apparently any rematch won't be for undisputed because the IBF are going to strip the belt for not facing their mandatory?

Keep it long, punish Usyk for trying to get into mid range as often as possible, slow him down with good work to the body, showboat in any close rounds to influence the judges. That's what it looked like to me and about what I expected from him, think it was his best chance of winning

Things that meant it failed:

1. You can't do the same thing to Usyk too much. The body punches worked well for 3 rounds, but after that Usyk was dialled into him. He was either taking them as a sacrifice to land his own punches, or anticipating them and catching Fury flush with his hands down. This is how he nearly stopped Fury, he hit Fury with a perfect shot at the moment Usyk knew Fury would be looking to throw to the body. Fury realized in the 8th round that if he threw those shots too much, he'd get punished for it so he was more tentative, then still got caught in the 9th

2. Fury doesn't have the power to dissuade Usyk - in rounds 4, 5 and 6 Fury used the uppercut really well whenever Usyk tried to come into mid range and it caused Usyk to step back, abandon attack and recalculate. Once he'd eaten 3 of them and knew he could take them, that stopped happening. The uppercut became the cost of getting into mid range and instead of backing off, Usyk threw with it and threw after it. This discouraged Fury from using it because it left him defensively vulnerable. The same goes for Fury's jab here, if AJ had been able to land his jab like Fury was, it might have been very effective because the combination of AJ power and Fury accuracy and reach might have been too much, but Usyk could work off the jab of Fury even when it did land.

3. Fury didn't have the movement or reflexive defence to implement the game plan effectively. He was able to do so in spurts, but particularly as he tired, he just couldn't stay light enough on his feet or stop Usyk effectively cut off the ring with that outside foot pressure. Usyk was hunting him down relentlessly, and Fury's movement had no answer for it, hence spending so much time on the ropes.

4. Fury couldn't effectively clinch. If you can't do number 3, you need to be able to spoil the fight and grab your opponent when they close in. Fury couldn't do this. Usyk was landing shots when he tried, moving to his side, slipping up when Fury did manage to grab him so Usyk was over Fury, not being leant on, and on a couple of occasions Usyk showed how strong he is by just throwing Fury off of him. The ref also helped here, breaking them up quickly.

Great analysis

Fury just couldn't find any sustained pressure, The 6th was probably the most trouble Usyk was in and he just bit down on his gum shield and kept moving forward. Class display.

[Black_S3]

Pugaris said:

I've definitely seen several knockdowns called when someone is held up by the ropes, can't recall which fight off the top of my head, but I've also seen it not called a hell of a lot more.

I thought it was pretty good reffing the whole fight in general. The ref was a bit unfortunate it was late on in the round but when balancing his responsibility for fighters safety against waving off a unified world title fight I think he was right not to allow Usyk the last potentially killer shot when within the rules he can use his discretion to call it a knockdown if the ropes are the only thing holding a fighter up. Ultimately it was a better outcome than the only other option the ref had of waving off the fight to have fury ranting on that he was fine to continue, which would have actually had some credibility given the wilder fights.

Shame that Fury wouldn’t give Usyk credit for the win but maybe see what he says over the next few days as he had been listing to big John telling him he was winning going into the 12th and also seemed to think it was New Year’s Day.