Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
Rufus Stone said:
Garvin said:
Really? For a current, live example of the stshow coming to a town near you I give you . . . Wales!
Keep going, you are doing well.Tankrizzo said:
Mixed feelings today.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
All true, however, they fact they're obviously going to win by a landslide means talented people will want to be Labour MP candidates and a lot of them will win. So hopefully SKS will have a lot of talent to choose from.The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
SKS will be constrained by the current situation, that is just a reality. Nobody is going to like it - the lefties will want to do more, the centrists will realise they can't do much and therefore hated by all sides, the righties will argue that its still all immigrants fault.
Comparisons back to Blair n Brown aren't overly helpful, the 00s were the most benign economic conditions the world had seen for a fair old period of time. And what happened? The western world damn nr managed to bankrupt itself by the end of the decade. I would hesitate to suggest that anybody uses this as a "good" example.
Climbing out of the '08 mess and plunging straight into Brexit can also be filed in the "not a good idea" drawer, but then hubris was CMD's big weakness in the same way that arrogance was Bojo's biggest weakness. One could argue that for 2 such vehement enemies, they were both rather alike in that respect.
Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
Comparisons back to Blair n Brown aren't overly helpful, the 00s were the most benign economic conditions the world had seen for a fair old period of time. And what happened? The western world damn nr managed to bankrupt itself by the end of the decade. I would hesitate to suggest that anybody uses this as a "good" example.
Climbing out of the '08 mess and plunging straight into Brexit can also be filed in the "not a good idea" drawer, but then hubris was CMD's big weakness in the same way that arrogance was Bojo's biggest weakness. One could argue that for 2 such vehement enemies, they were both rather alike in that respect.
Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Tankrizzo said:
Mixed feelings today.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
All true, however, they fact they're obviously going to win by a landslide means talented people will want to be Labour MP candidates and a lot of them will win. So hopefully SKS will have a lot of talent to choose from.The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
I think all the posters on here doom mongering about Labour should reflect that really the only reason Labour are where they are is due to the terrible last few Conservative administrations and their abject failure.
I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Tankrizzo said:
Mixed feelings today.
The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
All true, however, they fact they're obviously going to win by a landslide means talented people will want to be Labour MP candidates and a lot of them will win. So hopefully SKS will have a lot of talent to choose from.The political future isn't really great, is it, despite however you might feel about the absolute state of the Tories. We're facing an incoming administration who are essentially just the only option no matter the skillset or policies, and no matter how crap they are, they will face no challenge for years (aside from the usual rabble rousing at PMQs) from a subdued & neutered party in opposition. Even if Labour turn out to have some decent policies, the state of the economy will screw them for years from ever implementing stuff properly.
BigMon said:
I think all the posters on here doom mongering about Labour should reflect that really the only reason Labour are where they are is due to the terrible last few Conservative administrations and their abject failure.
I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
There are a fair few rubbing their hands...I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
I can't bring myself to vote for 'least worst' anymore. I've now decided that unless a candidate has actually earnt my vote, then I'm spoiling ballot.
Sway said:
Speed 3 said:
The NHS is a monster that's a victim of it's own success and I don't know that any government can 'fix' it. I like Rory Stewart's idea of a cross-party review into what the scope of the NHS should be.
Gotta pick up on this point - the NHS is an abject failure.So successful, that in nearly a century no other nation on earth has copied it.
Significantly underesourced compared to spend compared to peers. Outcomes awful. Etc.
Stewart is an idiot, but he's at least right on this one. However, the reality is that even if a cross party commission were established to completely redefine it's scope, structure, etc., the resistance to anything actually workable in the medium to long term would be greater than any protests the country has ever seen.
IMO Stewart is most definitely not an idiot. A few more like in Westminster over the last decade would have led to a closer contest that the one that is over now.
Speed 3 said:
IMO Stewart is most definitely not an idiot. A few more like in Westminster over the last decade would have led to a closer contest that the one that is over now.
RS is superb but he'd have lost to Milliband because without the promise of a Brexit refferendum he'd have lost 20pc of his votes to UKIP.BigMon said:
I think all the posters on here doom mongering about Labour should reflect that really the only reason Labour are where they are is due to the terrible last few Conservative administrations and their abject failure.
I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
Totally get not wanting to vote Conservative again, I didn't last time anyway and if we never saw them again, good riddance.I see no reason why I should vote Conservative again after the last three elections and I am obviously not alone.
Is anyone here really rubbing their hands about Labour getting in? It very much is a case of least worst.
What I cannot fathom is how that means we're stuck with the Labour stshow again though as if that bunch of wasters offer any answers at all. We have posters who aren't just running their hands but literally go out campaigning for them. They're the fastest way back to another Conservative government.
The politicians we deserve I suppose.
DeejRC said:
<edited for brevity>
Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
I broadly agree with your post. SKS will probably have a thumping majority at his disposal - likely exceeding the Tories' majority in 2019. But he will have no idea what to do with it. Initially I expect to see some fringe things enacted like free school meals, VAT on private education and cancelling the Rwanda scheme.Anyway, back to SKS and 2024. He should inherit a fairly optimistic outlook going forwards (in theory), but he will be constrained for his first 18months. The question initially will be how he manages that and then once things open up for him, what he will then do with that opportunity. I think that is where Chevron's view of SKS as a man utterly lacking in vision and convictions will start to get interesting. I wouldn't be surprised to see an internal Labour fight at that point.
18 months in, however, and the demands for
At this point, a Labour challenger with charisma might decide that the dithering SKS has to go. Wes Streeting, perhaps, or (shudder) Angela Rayner?
Speed 3 said:
By success I meant ever more treatments being developed to keep sick people alive longer. Actually delivering all these additional tools is unaffordable for any government. We've lost sight of what the NHS should be for - primary & emergency care plus health education. Anything over and above should be self-insured.
IMO Stewart is most definitely not an idiot. A few more like in Westminster over the last decade would have led to a closer contest that the one that is over now.
I'm not sure how to distinguish "keeping sick people alive longer" from "primary and emergency care". IMO Stewart is most definitely not an idiot. A few more like in Westminster over the last decade would have led to a closer contest that the one that is over now.
NomduJour said:
So why are outcomes better under pretty much every other healthcare system?
I don't know, I'm not a health care analyst. Would you like a boiled down, simplistic answer of the kind so beloved of populists, or perhaps we could all go away & do extensive reading around an obviously complex topic & come to some reasoned conclusions? Because if it's the former you'd prefer then it's because woke, mate.
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