Scottish Politics / Independence - Vol 12

[Roderick Spode]

Taffer said:

NRS said:

We're saved! The SNP are going to perhaps sort out some orders for Ferguson Marine!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24323424.fergu...

Prelude for giving them another cash injection and the small ferries contract without competitive tender, despite no improvement to the yard's productivity or quality ,or any guarantee that all the f**kups with the Glens won't be repeated again.

An incredible reward for laughable failure. This yard wouldn't survive for a week in a commercial competitive environment - who on earth would give them work? I appreciate the scope for the Glens has changed repeatedly over the years, even when the Sannox was in build and required significant alterations, but seriously. The whole thing will be a textbook example in years to come of how not to specify and build floating vessels. Meanwhile, the Turkish yards are churning them out at an almost unbelievable rate, built right and ready for service.

[Taffer]

Roderick Spode said:

I appreciate the scope for the Glens has changed repeatedly over the years, even when the Sannox was in build and required significant alterations, but seriously.

That's an oft-repeated tale; the scope for the vessel is still exactly the same as the 2015 tender contract - the 'changes' that CMAL wanted were due to FMPG rushing ahead on the build without design signoff or them not meeting MCA/LLoyds regs. The changes were actually just them having to go back and do things properly.

Lack of oversight by CMAL, yes (although ScotGov would have told them to wind their necks in), but the need for all the alterations was entirely Ferguson's doing.

[Roderick Spode]

Taffer said:

Roderick Spode said:

I appreciate the scope for the Glens has changed repeatedly over the years, even when the Sannox was in build and required significant alterations, but seriously.

That's an oft-repeated tale; the scope for the vessel is still exactly the same as the 2015 tender contract - the 'changes' that CMAL wanted were due to FMPG rushing ahead on the build without design signoff or them not meeting MCA/LLoyds regs. The changes were actually just them having to go back and do things properly.

Lack of oversight by CMAL, yes (although ScotGov would have told them to wind their necks in), but the need for all the alterations was entirely Ferguson's doing.

Ah! That's even worse in that case - incompetence on an epic scale. I thought I'd read somewhere that CMAL had made changes, but I must have misunderstood the nature and reason for them. Hilarious. What a shower of cowboys Fergusons are. Actually that's unkind to genuine hardworking cowboys who are just trying to earn a crust.

[irc]

NRS said:

We're saved! The SNP are going to perhaps sort out some orders for Ferguson Marine!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24323424.fergu...

"With the yard still working to improve productivity, unions are calling for the contract to be directly awarded rather than put out to competitive tender. "

Which means "we can't compete on quality or cost. Keep bunging the cash."

To which I would reply they have had a half a billion subsidy. Which other part of the SCottish budget should be cut to keep subsidising them and save their jobs. I would suggest it is time to create a few jobs building houses to reduce our housing shortage. If the Fergusons workers are that talented they will get jobs at BAE (thanks UK govt).

[Taffer]

Roderick Spode said:

Ah! That's even worse in that case - incompetence on an epic scale. I thought I'd read somewhere that CMAL had made changes, but I must have misunderstood the nature and reason for them. Hilarious. What a shower of cowboys Fergusons are. Actually that's unkind to genuine hardworking cowboys who are just trying to earn a crust.

There have been small changes, as with most similar builds, but CMAL paid for any outside the scope of the contract. The contract is worthless anyway - for example, the second vessel was supposed to have hull modifications to make her more suited to the Uig run, but they were never made. No penalties for failure though!

[alangla]

Taffer said:

There have been small changes, as with most similar builds, but CMAL paid for any outside the scope of the contract. The contract is worthless anyway - for example, the second vessel was supposed to have hull modifications to make her more suited to the Uig run, but they were never made. No penalties for failure though!

The fact that stbox didn’t have those features in the design would seem to be more of a concern. The major units pretty much always get moved on as new vessels join, so presumably those 2 aren’t going to be going to Arran for their whole lives.

Thinking about it, other than Argyle & Bute and specialised vessels like Lochnevis and Loch Portain, are any of them still on their original routes? Caledonian Isles will presumably be moving on when the Glens stumble into service and Loch Seaforth is still relatively new.

More and more I’m thinking that churning out carbon copies of the Cemre major units and some kind of battery version of the Ferguson hybrids (not necessarily built there!), with the ability to go anywhere each type goes, is the way ahead.

[Leithen]

In a different country Ferguson Marine might be the perfect money laundering operation.

[hidetheelephants]

alangla said:

More and more I’m thinking that churning out carbon copies of the Cemre major units and some kind of battery version of the Ferguson hybrids (not necessarily built there!), with the ability to go anywhere each type goes, is the way ahead.

I hope it isn't; the system is based around these and it doesn't work, it's costing a fortune and those running it don't care. It's an expensive employment scheme rather than an efficient ferry scheme.

[Taffer]

alangla said:

Thinking about it, other than Argyle & Bute and specialised vessels like Lochnevis and Loch Portain, are any of them still on their original routes? Caledonian Isles will presumably be moving on when the Glens stumble into service and Loch Seaforth is still relatively new.

Loch Seaforth will only ever do Ullapool-Stornoway due to her size/draught, the Isle of Mull has mainly done Mull, Finlaggan still serving Islay, Isle of Arran back on the Arran run too.

The infrastructure/fleet really needs a radical rethink rather than 'just do what was done before'. The Turkey ships are a step towards commonality for the major fleet, but shorter runs need more appropriate ships with less catering and crew, and the small fleet should have common locking linkspan designs like Norway rather than basic slipways.

Strategic, sensible, long-term thinking isn't exactly in great supply from our politicians at the moment though.

[dxg]

Roderick Spode said:

Taffer said:

NRS said:

We're saved! The SNP are going to perhaps sort out some orders for Ferguson Marine!

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24323424.fergu...

Prelude for giving them another cash injection and the small ferries contract without competitive tender, despite no improvement to the yard's productivity or quality ,or any guarantee that all the f**kups with the Glens won't be repeated again.

An incredible reward for laughable failure. This yard wouldn't survive for a week in a commercial competitive environment - who on earth would give them work? I appreciate the scope for the Glens has changed repeatedly over the years, even when the Sannox was in build and required significant alterations, but seriously. The whole thing will be a textbook example in years to come of how not to specify and build floating vessels. Meanwhile, the Turkish yards are churning them out at an almost unbelievable rate, built right and ready for service.

They should just buy some ice cream vans and sell smack directly onto the streets of Greenock and Port Glasgow. It would cut out the middle man by negating whole pretence that industry leads to disposal income and dependancy rather than the dole. Turn the FM offices onto one of their legalised consumption rooms just to rub in that the yards were never a real industry.

[hidetheelephants]

Taffer said:

The infrastructure/fleet really needs a radical rethink rather than 'just do what was done before'. The Turkey ships are a step towards commonality for the major fleet, but shorter runs need more appropriate ships with less catering and crew, and the small fleet should have common locking linkspan designs like Norway rather than basic slipways.

Strategic, sensible, long-term thinking isn't exactly in great supply from our politicians at the moment though.

It's desperately needed, the existing system's costs are ruinous.

[alangla]

Taffer said:

Loch Seaforth will only ever do Ullapool-Stornoway due to her size/draught, the Isle of Mull has mainly done Mull, Finlaggan still serving Islay, Isle of Arran back on the Arran run too.

The infrastructure/fleet really needs a radical rethink rather than 'just do what was done before'. The Turkey ships are a step towards commonality for the major fleet, but shorter runs need more appropriate ships with less catering and crew, and the small fleet should have common locking linkspan designs like Norway rather than basic slipways.

Strategic, sensible, long-term thinking isn't exactly in great supply from our politicians at the moment though.

I went on a day trip to Rothesay a couple of weeks ago. Argyle was pretty full in both directions and a decent chunk of the passengers, especially on the way out, were carrying coffees or beer cans. Queue was huge when we were leaving Wemyss Bay. It did make me wonder how profitable the Coffee Cabins are on these runs. In the winter they must lose money hand over fist. As an aside: £13.99 for a Calmac lion! I was too scared to look at the price of the Lego Loch Seaforth. Shifting one of them would probably pay for the day’s operation.

[Roderick Spode]

alangla said:

I was too scared to look at the price of the Lego Loch Seaforth. Shifting one of them would probably pay for the day’s operation.

Whatever you do, don't ask Fergusons to put it together for you. Goodness knows what you would end up with.

[Klippie]

Leithen said:

In a different country Ferguson Marine might be the perfect money laundering operation.

Don't say things like that or Sturgeon will have the boys round...throwing irons at you.

[Evercross]

irc said:

"With the yard still working to improve productivity, unions are calling for the contract to be directly awarded rather than put out to competitive tender. "

Which means "we can't compete on quality or cost. Keep bunging the cash."

To which I would reply they have had a half a billion subsidy. Which other part of the Scottish budget should be cut to keep subsidising them and save their jobs.

Housing?
Education?

Because that's two that have been cut already. Others to follow, but its all "Toaree Austerity" (© 2010) to blame. Except that it isn't, but the dog whistle still seems good for a few more toots yet at the thick SNats.

[munroman]

alangla said:

Taffer said:

Loch Seaforth will only ever do Ullapool-Stornoway due to her size/draught, the Isle of Mull has mainly done Mull, Finlaggan still serving Islay, Isle of Arran back on the Arran run too.

The infrastructure/fleet really needs a radical rethink rather than 'just do what was done before'. The Turkey ships are a step towards commonality for the major fleet, but shorter runs need more appropriate ships with less catering and crew, and the small fleet should have common locking linkspan designs like Norway rather than basic slipways.

Strategic, sensible, long-term thinking isn't exactly in great supply from our politicians at the moment though.

I went on a day trip to Rothesay a couple of weeks ago. Argyle was pretty full in both directions and a decent chunk of the passengers, especially on the way out, were carrying coffees or beer cans. Queue was huge when we were leaving Wemyss Bay. It did make me wonder how profitable the Coffee Cabins are on these runs. In the winter they must lose money hand over fist. As an aside: £13.99 for a Calmac lion! I was too scared to look at the price of the Lego Loch Seaforth. Shifting one of them would probably pay for the day’s operation.

To be fair, a Lego Calmac ship would probably take 7 years to build....

[alangla]

munroman said:

To be fair, a Lego Calmac ship would probably take 7 years to build....

I’m sure if they eventually produce a model of Glen Sannox it’ll only have square bricks and several will be missing. You’ll probably also get a sheet of black decals instead of the usual plastic window pieces.

[Jader1973]

When you think about it Fergusons and the SNP have a lot in common.

Both massively incompetent, and desperate for more work beyond what they currently have on the table.

[hidetheelephants]

I'm looking forward to Fergusons being used to help with Scotland's housing crisis, there's room there for a few blocks of flats and they'll have a nice view.

[irc]

Another success story turned into failure. Prisoners being released early due to overcrowding.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c72p258g99jo

Why are the jails crowded? In part because there are more cons doing sentences of 10 years or more. That is a success story. More murderers in jail and not being paroled until they have complied with the various conditions during training for releae. More sex offenders in jail. Also more life prisoners released on licence are being recalled after breaching the licence conditions. Again, a good thing IMO.

"Scotland has an aging prison population. There has been a 46% increase in prisoners over•
60 years old since 2017. The average age of prisoners has risen to 31.22
- This is influenced (in part) by lengthier sentences and difficulties in obtaining parole.
Another factor is the successful prosecution of higher numbers of historical cases of
sexual abuse."
There has been an increase in recalls from supervision on license. Recalled individuals in•
the average daily prison population has risen 36% from 296 in 2009-10 to 403 in 2019-20"

https://prisonreformtrust.org.uk/wp-content/upload...

So. If more prisoners are being, for good reasons, kept behind bars we need another prison or two.

Instead of long term planning and funding we have panic measures of releasing prisoners early.