Biden announces increased tariffs on EVs

[BikeBikeBIke]

swisstoni said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

We would if prices went up.

Labour in China has increased massively in price as they step off their demographic cliff edge. I don't think shifting production elsewhere is going to make much difference, we didn't notice when the last tarrifs went on.

[TheDeuce]

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

We would if prices went up.

Labour in China has increased massively in price as they step off their demographic cliff edge. I don't think shifting production elsewhere is going to make much difference, we didn't notice when the last tarrifs went on.

The average salary in china is less than a 12th of the US. That's just the salary, the various costs of having employees and meeting their rights, welfare requirements and avoiding being sued in the states increase that margin even more.

If you live in a country that has a high standard of human rights, then that country can't get close to the costs that china can produce stuff at - not remotely close.

[BikeBikeBIke]

TheDeuce said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

We would if prices went up.

Labour in China has increased massively in price as they step off their demographic cliff edge. I don't think shifting production elsewhere is going to make much difference, we didn't notice when the last tarrifs went on.

The average salary in china is less than a 12th of the US. That's just the salary, the various costs of having employees and meeting their rights, welfare requirements and avoiding being sued in the states increase that margin even more.

If you live in a country that has a high standard of human rights, then that country can't get close to the costs that china can produce stuff at - not remotely close.

There are countries other than the USA and China. My firm (German HQ) moved manufacturing from China to Taiwan and Eastern Europe. Very little difference in cost.

[NRS]

TheDeuce said:

Again, we agree that no one is keen on them rising up as 'upstarts'. But they can and will, which is why they're aligning themselves with anti western states - together they're stronger.

The west doesn't want that because it's been hugely convenient to shunt our dirty manufacturing to a place where the labour rates are a fraction of at home, so everyone in the west gets lots of cheap stuff - such as us, as we type in this debate on our phones/computers.. But to maintain that status quo the west has had to use all sorts of tricks to try and keep the Chinese subdued. Those days are now drawing to a close, they can't be subdued any longer.

The west doesn't want or like that, but it is what it is. And it WILL be described politically as a 'threat' to the west for sure. But I don't think it is, unless we call China standing on it's own feet and telling the west to politely ps off a threat?

I don't personally see it as reasonable to forever seek to keep a country pegged down 'in case' it is a threat one day. I also see nothing to suggest the Chinese want to be a threat to the west. They want to grow as China and be strong enough to no longer be manipulated by the west - is part of that unfair?

They’re doing the same as every other big power before, hover up resources, build influence and so on. It’s no difference to anyone else, but it is a threat. It’s why you see stalemates on things that wouldn’t have been in the past, as China’s power grows it reduces the power of others, as if China want to push something they can cut off rare earth minerals or similar and screw others over. Look at that limited impact we can have on Russia for example due to the need for energy from them. China is the same and is growing. Same with the US, we will be pushed around a lot on some issues to keep them as an ally as a result.

[hidetheelephants]

They can't cut off REEs, REEs are everywhere. Insofar as they have control they have most of the world's REE foundry capacity, it would be expensive to create that elsewhere but entirely feasible.

[isaldiri]

NRS said:

They’re doing the same as every other big power before, hover up resources, build influence and so on. It’s no difference to anyone else, but it is a threat. It’s why you see stalemates on things that wouldn’t have been in the past, as China’s power grows it reduces the power of others, as if China want to push something they can cut off rare earth minerals or similar and screw others over. Look at that limited impact we can have on Russia for example due to the need for energy from them. China is the same and is growing. Same with the US, we will be pushed around a lot on some issues to keep them as an ally as a result.

The limited impact we have on russia is likely less due to our need for energy from them but rather that a rather large chunk of the rest of the world is entirely happy to continue trading with the russians...

The rare earth issue for the western powers is also a somewhat similar problem to what the US is attempting to be doing with high end semiconductors to China. One can temporarily cause a pretty severe problem but it's a one time problem that can ultimately be solved if enough money is thrown at it and with enough time. China likely will get to whatever point they need with ever smaller semiconductors in time despite the US efforts but presumably slowing that progress is viewed as worthwhile nevertheless - the calculation seems to also be that china will not want to risk really constricting rare earth supplies to the point of risking a military confrontation so there is sufficient time to build up capability to source whatever that might be needed longer term especially with US military superiority likely to be lasting a while yet.

[Oliver Hardy]

TheDeuce said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

swisstoni said:

The Chinese have simply decided to satisfy our seemingly endless appetite for cheap stuff.

Anyone could see how that was going to end up.
Yet it suited our here today, gone tomorrow political masters for the plebs to be happy with all the cheap goodies.

Changing that now is going to be painful and expensive.

It's really not going to be difficult. Factories move from China to Taiwan and other places all the time. We'll barely notice the change.

We would if prices went up.

Labour in China has increased massively in price as they step off their demographic cliff edge. I don't think shifting production elsewhere is going to make much difference, we didn't notice when the last tarrifs went on.

The average salary in china is less than a 12th of the US. That's just the salary, the various costs of having employees and meeting their rights, welfare requirements and avoiding being sued in the states increase that margin even more.

If you live in a country that has a high standard of human rights, then that country can't get close to the costs that china can produce stuff at - not remotely close.

You need to add logistics costs. A few years ago had a small business and the cost difference of buying stuff from China and Europe was big in favour of China, but by the time you added shipping costs and the fact it could take up to three weeks to ship from China and a couple of days say from Poland for example meant the difference was quite small.

TheDeuce said:

They're modernising China as a whole, specifically the mainland at the cost of some backward steps in HK. Look at videos from the mainland as recently as the 90's, compared to today. I would say the net quality of life for the average citizen is markedly improved too, again at the expense of a mistreated minority - mistreated by current western standards that is. Go back as little as 100 year in the west and thing's weren't that different, minus the communism.

The Taiwan situation is more complex as they have never accepted Taiwan independence, but also it was hardly a catastrophic loss and probably not worth a war. But now, because of it's monopoly of the semiconductor market, Taiwan has a power than China does not, and it's better for China to have that power - for their own international security. They also have to from relationships with India and Russia for their own security.

Of course, whatever power and connections brings security can also be used offensively - but we appear to agree that there is little reason for them to want to behave aggressively.

Is China really that modern, told some of the larger cities are quite western but much of China is third world?

Also as well as an aging population I am hearing China is in financial trouble, domestically and in their investments in Africa?

Also semi conductors, not sure how Taiwan got a monopoly on semi conductors but surely this is being fixed, hear Intel are about to announce a semi conductor that will take the advantage away from Taiwan, but again ? Sure others on here are far more able to comment on the subject.