The decline of manual values
Discussion
ManualOnly said:
Perhaps somewhat vaguely explained, but does Preuninger mean that a PDK eats more horsepower than a manual?
I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
I thought this was well known but going by the amount of nonsense spoken in this thread, evidently not.I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
All autos incur more parasitic losses compared to a manual box.
It’s why Porsches with manual gearboxes have a higher top speed than their PDK equivalents.
It’s also why fuel consumption is increased with PDK compared to a manual.
SkinnyPete said:
ManualOnly said:
Perhaps somewhat vaguely explained, but does Preuninger mean that a PDK eats more horsepower than a manual?
I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
I thought this was well known but going by the amount of nonsense spoken in this thread, evidently not.I interpret it that way.
21:24
https://youtu.be/xsQ2xdtli2k?t=1279
If that's true, manuals are:
Cheaper
Less complicated
Lighter
Have less drivetrain losses
All autos incur more parasitic losses compared to a manual box.
It’s why Porsches with manual gearboxes have a higher top speed than their PDK equivalents.
It’s also why fuel consumption is increased with PDK compared to a manual.
Vmax is often power limited, but far from always. Sticking with Porsche, a 996 Turbo Tiptronic has a higher potential top speed than a manaual due to gearing.
Stage 1 tuned Tiptronics can therefore theoretically go faster (Vmax) than manuals, but at 204 mph, I don't think you'd really notice.
LunarOne said:
MC Bodge said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
We are not worthyMC Bodge said:
We are not worthy
It’s a valid point though. Losing a couple of BNP matters far less on more powerful engines and the slower shift of manuals is more of a hindrance.As I wrote above, it’s no surprise that the least powerful of my cars is the only one that I want to be a manual.
J4CKO said:
My wife is a good driver, but tends to sit in one or two gears lower than she should be in on a fast road, fourth or even third when my brain is screaming "CHANGE UP FFS" or it starts chugging as its in a gear too high, but I have learnt not to say anything as it never goes well, prefer to avoid walking home 
Sounds like she’s done a police driving course! I haven’t owned a manual since my Z4M coupe back in 2010. And hadn’t driven one for years until I had to bring my recently late father’s car to the dealer to sell it a few weeks ago.
Personally, I would be very reluctant to have a manual now, but each to their own. The latest ZF 8 speed boxes and PDKs etc are so good that I can’t see the point unless you really must have a third pedal. That’s without factoring in EVs.
I do think however, the market for special manual cars is secure.
Personally, I would be very reluctant to have a manual now, but each to their own. The latest ZF 8 speed boxes and PDKs etc are so good that I can’t see the point unless you really must have a third pedal. That’s without factoring in EVs.
I do think however, the market for special manual cars is secure.
I have a 1999 TVR. 4.6 V8, so a Range Rover engine married to a T5 gearbox.
The engine is a 1950s Buick design and the gearbox a 1960s Ford Mustang.
It isn't a motorway cruiser, more a brisk country roads and track day car.
It suits a manual gearbox, but the clutches do tend to be heavy.
Heavy enough that, after driving it home 50 miles for me just after I first got it (I was driving a 7.5 tonne truck that day), my 8 stone 5 ft 4 wife asked to be taken off the insurance when we got home.
There are some lighter clutches available now, but as I have a problem with pain in my left big toe joint, I improved the driving experience by having a servo fitted into the system. This lightened the clutch by about 50%.
I cannot imagine doing track days without a clutch, and I prefer to be able to change down for bends on country roads.
The Saabs I drive as dailies are autos and make great motorway cruisers and town cars - I wouldn't want them to be manual.
So I guess for me, having been driving for over 50 years, the decision about gearboxes is one of what am I going to be doing with the car, not one size fits all.
The engine is a 1950s Buick design and the gearbox a 1960s Ford Mustang.
It isn't a motorway cruiser, more a brisk country roads and track day car.
It suits a manual gearbox, but the clutches do tend to be heavy.
Heavy enough that, after driving it home 50 miles for me just after I first got it (I was driving a 7.5 tonne truck that day), my 8 stone 5 ft 4 wife asked to be taken off the insurance when we got home.
There are some lighter clutches available now, but as I have a problem with pain in my left big toe joint, I improved the driving experience by having a servo fitted into the system. This lightened the clutch by about 50%.
I cannot imagine doing track days without a clutch, and I prefer to be able to change down for bends on country roads.
The Saabs I drive as dailies are autos and make great motorway cruisers and town cars - I wouldn't want them to be manual.
So I guess for me, having been driving for over 50 years, the decision about gearboxes is one of what am I going to be doing with the car, not one size fits all.
Didn't I read somewhere that the new Hyundai Irony 5 R has a mode to imitate a manual car with fake noises and a fake gearbox, it even makes throttle blipping sounds as if you are double de-clutching or heel and toe! This just to make it more involving for the driver.
The subscribers to EV weakly, Terminal Bore, must be having a fit of the vapours.
Seriously, autos are great if you have a crummy stop-start commute or live in a metropolis. Mind you I remember the best feature of my last auto, HQ Kingswood Wagon, was the bench seat freed up by having a 3 on the tree shifter.
The subscribers to EV weakly, Terminal Bore, must be having a fit of the vapours.
Seriously, autos are great if you have a crummy stop-start commute or live in a metropolis. Mind you I remember the best feature of my last auto, HQ Kingswood Wagon, was the bench seat freed up by having a 3 on the tree shifter.
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
BandOfBrothers said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
I've never found a manual a chore at all. Quite the opposite.
911Spanker said:
BandOfBrothers said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
I've never found a manual a chore at all. Quite the opposite.
The correct answer to this of course is to not be wasting nice cars pissing around Kensington but that is what it is and many of those drivers are using them as status symbols rather than cars in any case which means the drive quality is basically irrelevant.
911Spanker said:
Do you sweat driving a manual for an hour?
I've never found a manual a chore at all. Quite the opposite.
Couldn't agree more, I will be driving a couple of hours (traffic dependent) in Friday afternoon traffic on the M6 in my 80's TVR this week and instead of filling me with dread I am looking forward to it.I've never found a manual a chore at all. Quite the opposite.
Admittedly I won't have the pleasure of 'feathering' the brake pedal if the traffic is stop start, instead I will have the huge chore of engaging/disengaging the clutch
FHCNICK said:
Admittedly I won't have the pleasure of 'feathering' the brake pedal if the traffic is stop start, instead I will have the huge chore of engaging/disengaging the clutch
Suppose you are driving uphill and need to come to a stand. Do you prefer to balance the car on the clutch (I hope not!) or to put it in neutral and hold on handbrake (or other combos like clutch + brake down or whatever)?Compare to the auto feathering thing as you call it.
I don't see how you can argue it's less effort. It's obviously more.
(This shouldn't be read as saying it's a huge deal)
Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Thursday 16th May 01:34
Somewhatfoolish said:
Suppose you are driving uphill and need to come to a stand. Do you prefer to balance the car on the clutch (I hope not!) or to put it in neutral and hold on handbrake (or other combos like clutch + brake down or whatever)?
Compare to the auto feathering thing as you call it.
I don't see how you can argue it's less effort. It's obviously more.
(This shouldn't be read as saying it's a huge deal)
I agree, I think most of those comments were more in response to BoB's ridiculous claim that manuals are 'excruciating' in stop-start traffic.Compare to the auto feathering thing as you call it.
I don't see how you can argue it's less effort. It's obviously more.
(This shouldn't be read as saying it's a huge deal)
My most difficult car in stop-start traffic was a very modified turbo MX5 with some kind of race clutch, it wasn't particularly heavy but it was like an on/off switch with an unforgivingly precise bite point. Manageable but you did have to concentrate to avoid stalling or lurching like an idiot.
Pit Pony said:
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Apart from my politics that haven't changed, my 20 year old self would be upset at the person I have become. Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Those with sport of supercars - do you use the paddles all the time or rarely?
Somewhatfoolish said:
Where do you drive? In Central London and other such stupid places to drive sports cars (yet where ironically nice cars are more likely to be found... absolutely insane to me to buy a supercar and just drive it around Chelsea but people have the right to do what they want with their money and someone needs to buy them so people like me can get them second hand) while it's an exaggeration to call it a 'chore' there's no doubt that it's less pleasant to drive a manual in traffic. I don't know how this could even be disputed?
The correct answer to this of course is to not be wasting nice cars pissing around Kensington but that is what it is and many of those drivers are using them as status symbols rather than cars in any case which means the drive quality is basically irrelevant.
That’s a very strange post. If you live in London and want a nice car then of course you’ll use it to go to the shops as well as to the track or across France.The correct answer to this of course is to not be wasting nice cars pissing around Kensington but that is what it is and many of those drivers are using them as status symbols rather than cars in any case which means the drive quality is basically irrelevant.
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