Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
Carl_VivaEspana said:
Why stop at free food? why not free clothing for all children under 16 ? no child should have to have to suffer the indignity of not being able to afford a coat and shoes. what about a home? what about heating it during winter so they don't become sick? why can't people afford electricity and water so a child can have a hot shower or bath? why not make it free for all at the point of use as they are basic human rights?
Yeah, why not? I think a lot those are covered by benefits already provided. andymadmak said:
Disastrous said:
andymadmak said:
Thats right Stewie, completely ignore the points made and hide behind a simplistic slogan. Not like you at all 
I ask again, where does it end? Weekend meals? Meals in holidays? Shoes for everyone? A winter coat? All are necessary things, but the state cannot usurp the role of the parent!
But it’s such a daft question. I ask again, where does it end? Weekend meals? Meals in holidays? Shoes for everyone? A winter coat? All are necessary things, but the state cannot usurp the role of the parent! “Where does it end?”
How about “At schools meals”. Is it acceptable now?
The point you refute and that Carl ignores, is that extending it to cover holidays/weekends shouldn’t incur an actual cost if the upside in outcome is there. All the other whataboutery you both bring up (clothes, shelter etc) may or may not have the same financial model, I don't know.
As for your 'verifiable data', I think somebody mentioned a PWC report earlier…not good enough?
Honestly, this feels ideological rather than data driven. You and Carl are just against the idea that it might be cheaper to provide something to all rather than means test it. The end.
It's a pity - I do a lot of work with a charity that helps kids with issues like holiday hunger, heating or eating etc etc and it's been quite eye opening to see firsthand that the parents involved usually aren't the lazy, alcoholic, druggies I feel certain you are imagining.
I also sense this will fall on deaf ears so will bow out on that note.
Carl_VivaEspana said:
In a world that is now rooted in entitlement and social justice there is only one right answer between allocating 120 million to free school meals or, 120 million to body armour for our army - we end up spending 240 million and fund it with debt and ever higher taxation.
If you have to decide between these two competing priorities you are either a proponent of child starvation or, a squaddie killer.
There is no real end to social justice or, it's cost to the tax payer, it's designed to always find another way to spend ever increasing amounts on state dependency.
Why stop at free food? why not free clothing for all children under 16 ? no child should have to have to suffer the indignity of not being able to afford a coat and shoes. what about a home? what about heating it during winter so they don't become sick? why can't people afford electricity and water so a child can have a hot shower or bath? why not make it free for all at the point of use as they are basic human rights?
I, like pretty much everyone else here, I suspect , wishes the elimination of all these issues from our society and way of life, especially children and the vulnerable.
The problem with the left in our country is that the coverage and scale of social justice has moved well beyond where it was originally intended to focus on and the irony of it is, the UK probably could afford to entirely eliminate child poverty, implement free school meals, clothing, food vouchers, housing if the focus was shifted away from the welfare state that supports adults that are not actually vulnerable.
that's not a dialog the left wants to have as everyone has a grievance and a need on the state as the state will provide for all.
When did the ‘world become rooted in entitlement and social justice?’ If you have to decide between these two competing priorities you are either a proponent of child starvation or, a squaddie killer.
There is no real end to social justice or, it's cost to the tax payer, it's designed to always find another way to spend ever increasing amounts on state dependency.
Why stop at free food? why not free clothing for all children under 16 ? no child should have to have to suffer the indignity of not being able to afford a coat and shoes. what about a home? what about heating it during winter so they don't become sick? why can't people afford electricity and water so a child can have a hot shower or bath? why not make it free for all at the point of use as they are basic human rights?
I, like pretty much everyone else here, I suspect , wishes the elimination of all these issues from our society and way of life, especially children and the vulnerable.
The problem with the left in our country is that the coverage and scale of social justice has moved well beyond where it was originally intended to focus on and the irony of it is, the UK probably could afford to entirely eliminate child poverty, implement free school meals, clothing, food vouchers, housing if the focus was shifted away from the welfare state that supports adults that are not actually vulnerable.
that's not a dialog the left wants to have as everyone has a grievance and a need on the state as the state will provide for all.
There are some very skewed folk on here, desperately clinging to their ideology and dogmatically using any old tripe to counter reality and common sense. There’s a wealth of evidence that providing kids with the nourishment they need has clear cost benefits, equally that means testing is counter productive, it’s been known for years.
You can be certain when one of the usual reactionary lot insists it's not a left right issue, it's exacty that in their heads. SInce the pandemic, poverty levels have risen around the world. Ten years ago, Britain would have been at the forefront of efforts to alleviate this, Today, we see wholesale Tory indifference to hardship. The school meals coalition, led by developing nations to grow universal access to free school meals has China, the EU & the US as members but we're nowhere to be seen, another little death by a thousand cuts as the world becomes increasingly indifferent to Brexit Britain,
Right wingers rely on spurious anti government arguments to shore up their look the other way vibe in a cost of living crisis. Starmer is crippled by electoral caution & as far as I can see, the only polly getting it is Khan. The UK's governing class is disconnected from global trends on this in a period where we desperately need to combat obesity, poverty & moreover, our food security in a small island that imports north of 30% of its food & could recast our food systems at a policy level but of course what matters in some minds is where the family ends & the state begins.
Right wingers rely on spurious anti government arguments to shore up their look the other way vibe in a cost of living crisis. Starmer is crippled by electoral caution & as far as I can see, the only polly getting it is Khan. The UK's governing class is disconnected from global trends on this in a period where we desperately need to combat obesity, poverty & moreover, our food security in a small island that imports north of 30% of its food & could recast our food systems at a policy level but of course what matters in some minds is where the family ends & the state begins.
Blue62 said:
Carl_VivaEspana said:
In a world that is now rooted in entitlement and social justice there is only one right answer between allocating 120 million to free school meals or, 120 million to body armour for our army - we end up spending 240 million and fund it with debt and ever higher taxation.
If you have to decide between these two competing priorities you are either a proponent of child starvation or, a squaddie killer.
There is no real end to social justice or, it's cost to the tax payer, it's designed to always find another way to spend ever increasing amounts on state dependency.
Why stop at free food? why not free clothing for all children under 16 ? no child should have to have to suffer the indignity of not being able to afford a coat and shoes. what about a home? what about heating it during winter so they don't become sick? why can't people afford electricity and water so a child can have a hot shower or bath? why not make it free for all at the point of use as they are basic human rights?
I, like pretty much everyone else here, I suspect , wishes the elimination of all these issues from our society and way of life, especially children and the vulnerable.
The problem with the left in our country is that the coverage and scale of social justice has moved well beyond where it was originally intended to focus on and the irony of it is, the UK probably could afford to entirely eliminate child poverty, implement free school meals, clothing, food vouchers, housing if the focus was shifted away from the welfare state that supports adults that are not actually vulnerable.
that's not a dialog the left wants to have as everyone has a grievance and a need on the state as the state will provide for all.
When did the ‘world become rooted in entitlement and social justice?’ If you have to decide between these two competing priorities you are either a proponent of child starvation or, a squaddie killer.
There is no real end to social justice or, it's cost to the tax payer, it's designed to always find another way to spend ever increasing amounts on state dependency.
Why stop at free food? why not free clothing for all children under 16 ? no child should have to have to suffer the indignity of not being able to afford a coat and shoes. what about a home? what about heating it during winter so they don't become sick? why can't people afford electricity and water so a child can have a hot shower or bath? why not make it free for all at the point of use as they are basic human rights?
I, like pretty much everyone else here, I suspect , wishes the elimination of all these issues from our society and way of life, especially children and the vulnerable.
The problem with the left in our country is that the coverage and scale of social justice has moved well beyond where it was originally intended to focus on and the irony of it is, the UK probably could afford to entirely eliminate child poverty, implement free school meals, clothing, food vouchers, housing if the focus was shifted away from the welfare state that supports adults that are not actually vulnerable.
that's not a dialog the left wants to have as everyone has a grievance and a need on the state as the state will provide for all.
There are some very skewed folk on here, desperately clinging to their ideology and dogmatically using any old tripe to counter reality and common sense. There’s a wealth of evidence that providing kids with the nourishment they need has clear cost benefits, equally that means testing is counter productive, it’s been known for years.
Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
turbobloke said:
Also there are some deeply ironic posts which mention clinging to ideology allied to any old trlpe.
Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
Just a quick one about Britain. What left wing party has had their way in the last 14 years? Why are we hearing how terrible the left is when its the right in power? Did Brexit not give you want you thought it would? Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
turbobloke said:
Also there are some deeply ironic posts which mention clinging to ideology allied to any old trlpe.
Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
The annual ‘Tortured Prose’ competition must be just around the corner. I’m not entirely sure what point you’re trying to make, if it’s that people are rejecting the status quo because it’s failed them, then to some extent I would agree. Where we might diverge is the reasons behind the failure and how people are manipulated. Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
But anyway, where are you on free school meals Turbs, or would you prefer free school males?
The point is the same as it always is. The rise of the loonies is your fault for not accommodating the loonies & if only you'd listen to us.
Illustrating the point with Trumpers, you know, inject bleach, Britain Trump, endless indictments, Four seasons landscaping, attempted coup, cuddling up to every dictator going etc. is a weird effort to prop up your argument but then again it's Turbospam, so nothing is too unprincpled to reach for,
Awaits predictable accusation of ad homming.
Illustrating the point with Trumpers, you know, inject bleach, Britain Trump, endless indictments, Four seasons landscaping, attempted coup, cuddling up to every dictator going etc. is a weird effort to prop up your argument but then again it's Turbospam, so nothing is too unprincpled to reach for,
Awaits predictable accusation of ad homming.
Killboy said:
turbobloke said:
Also there are some deeply ironic posts which mention clinging to ideology allied to any old trlpe.
Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
Just a quick one about Britain. What left wing party has had their way in the last 14 years? Why are we hearing how terrible the left is when its the right in power? Did Brexit not give you want you thought it would? Did you look on in shock and surprise when Trump got himself elected? I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last young cat grabber in the universe, yet the reasons for his election were and are obvious - but they appear to elude you. Is the Daily Mail read widely in the USA? There's one excuse gone, some more excuses will appear for sure. The Left Knows Best.
Another Trump (if not the same one) will be elected in one country or another soon enough. Shocking. There's a dire need here for more than useless Labour and useless Conservatives, so I won't be trashing an alternative knee-jerky style when it becomes available even if I disagree with its policies. A new Party or Parties appearing is a sign of something good (more choice) not all that's wrong.
President Merkin said:
The point is the same as it always is. The rise of the loonies is your fault for not accommodating the loonies & if only you'd listen to us.
Illustrating the point with Trumpers, you know, inject bleach, Britain Trump, endless indictments, Four seasons landscaping, attempted coup, cuddling up to every dictator going etc. is a weird effort to prop up your argument but then again it's Turbospam, so nothing is too unprincpled to reach for,
Awaits predictable accusation of ad homming.
And yet he carries so much popular support, not a great advertisement for USA politics. Illustrating the point with Trumpers, you know, inject bleach, Britain Trump, endless indictments, Four seasons landscaping, attempted coup, cuddling up to every dictator going etc. is a weird effort to prop up your argument but then again it's Turbospam, so nothing is too unprincpled to reach for,
Awaits predictable accusation of ad homming.
crankedup5 said:
I’m no longer certain that the U.K. opposition Party is Left of centre. They are so close to Tory Values it’s difficult to be able to casually separate these Parties. It’s a reason why Reform U.K. is picking up interest.
Let me get this straight: Because the "Left knows best" Labour are now right of center, so that's why people are interested in the "far" right?Killboy said:
crankedup5 said:
I’m no longer certain that the U.K. opposition Party is Left of centre. They are so close to Tory Values it’s difficult to be able to casually separate these Parties. It’s a reason why Reform U.K. is picking up interest.
Let me get this straight: Because the "Left knows best" Labour are now right of center, so that's why people are interested in the "far" right?I don’t see the Tory Party as being Far Right, that’s a nonsense statement. This leaves the Tory Party Right of centre and very close to Labour.
I didn’t say that Labour are Right of Centre, you did.
Edited by crankedup5 on Thursday 2nd May 09:55
crankedup5 said:
And yet he carries so much popular support, not a great advertisement for USA politics.
If there is one thing he doesn't have & never did, it's popular support, Yet again, you have confused the meaning of a word with how a particular electoral system works. And even if you indulge the thought experiment that he did, it's not indicative of anything other than an appealing message, Make America great again. OK, how exactly? People falling for simple slogans is a poor advert for politics anywhere & Reform are amongst the worst culprits, designing their message for the lightest of thinkers.
crankedup5 said:
That seems to be the situation, evidence that Labour values were ditched when Momentum were cleared from the Party ranks.That was the moment SKS decided that for Labour to obtain Governance of the Country the Party had to move to the centre ground, which is what they have done. Old left wings hands such as Owen Jones are appalled by the Labour betrayal of the left wingers.The exception is still of course that Labour are bankrolled by the Unions and therefore have to kowtow to their demands. Evidence the Rayner statement removing the legislation controlling Union ‘rights’ within 100 days.
I don’t see the Tory Party as being Far Right, that’s a nonsense statement. This leaves the Tory Party Right of centre and very close to Labour.
I didn’t say that Labour are Right of Centre, you did.
What? In this post you first argue the case, and then say you didnt say they are right of center. Well what does I don’t see the Tory Party as being Far Right, that’s a nonsense statement. This leaves the Tory Party Right of centre and very close to Labour.
I didn’t say that Labour are Right of Centre, you did.
crankedup5 said:
I’m no longer certain that the U.K. opposition Party is Left of centre.
mean then?I didnt say Tory party are far right, you mentioned Reform gaining interest and I'm referring to them.
President Merkin said:
crankedup5 said:
And yet he carries so much popular support, not a great advertisement for USA politics.
If there is one thing he doesn't have & never did, it's popular support, Yet again, you have confused the meaning of a word with how a particular electoral system works. And even if you indulge the thought experiment that he did, it's not indicative of anything other than an appealing message, Make America great again. OK, how exactly? People falling for simple slogans is a poor advert for politics anywhere & Reform are amongst the worst culprits, designing their message for the lightest of thinkers.
smn159 said:
bad company said:
smn159 said:
Scrapping those LTNs isn't going to be popular with locals - 60% of residents and businesses are in favour of hem, according to a report that Sunak commissioned that he hoped would demonstrate their unpopularity and then attempted to shelve when it inconveniently concluded otherwise. This is more culture war bulls
t that isn't supported by the evidence.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/lo...
Rest of it is clearly bks designed to appeal to the sort of people who stand as UKIP... sorry Reform candidates
LTN’s are usually popular with those living in them but not those in surrounding areas where the extra traffic ends up.t that isn't supported by the evidence.https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/lo...
Rest of it is clearly b
ks designed to appeal to the sort of people who stand as UKIP... sorry Reform candidatesIf Reform can't get this right it does reinforce the impression that they've pulled a load of nonsense out of their arses that they think might appeal to those who don't pay too much attention to actual evidence.
Edited by smn159 on Wednesday 1st May 19:28
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13125721/...
Killboy said:
crankedup5 said:
That seems to be the situation, evidence that Labour values were ditched when Momentum were cleared from the Party ranks.That was the moment SKS decided that for Labour to obtain Governance of the Country the Party had to move to the centre ground, which is what they have done. Old left wings hands such as Owen Jones are appalled by the Labour betrayal of the left wingers.The exception is still of course that Labour are bankrolled by the Unions and therefore have to kowtow to their demands. Evidence the Rayner statement removing the legislation controlling Union ‘rights’ within 100 days.
I don’t see the Tory Party as being Far Right, that’s a nonsense statement. This leaves the Tory Party Right of centre and very close to Labour.
I didn’t say that Labour are Right of Centre, you did.
What? In this post you first argue the case, and then say you didnt say they are right of center. Well what does I don’t see the Tory Party as being Far Right, that’s a nonsense statement. This leaves the Tory Party Right of centre and very close to Labour.
I didn’t say that Labour are Right of Centre, you did.
crankedup5 said:
I’m no longer certain that the U.K. opposition Party is Left of centre.
mean then?I didnt say Tory party are far right, you mentioned Reform gaining interest and I'm referring to them.
crankedup5 said:
What you wrote is indicative of popular support. Although of course I disagree with your expected comments regarding Reform U.K. and your overused insults on every post you make to people who hold differing opinions to your own. Tiresome.
No what's tiresome is failing to understand the meaning of words in the context deployed & then simply repeating yourself. You could easily have gone away & looked it up but raising a finger appears to be too much effort for you, which if you think about it (fat chance) is perfect Reform territory.President Merkin said:
crankedup5 said:
What you wrote is indicative of popular support. Although of course I disagree with your expected comments regarding Reform U.K. and your overused insults on every post you make to people who hold differing opinions to your own. Tiresome.
No what's tiresome is failing to understand the meaning of words in the context deployed & then simply repeating yourself. You could easily have gone away & looked it up but raising a finger appears to be too much effort for you, which if you think about it (fat chance) is perfect Reform territory.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff