Trade rates experience
Discussion
OzzyR1 said:
You said in the OP that you got 5 quotes & went with the lowest at £5,750 with others being mostly £6K+.
Excluding the £10K guy who obviously didn't want it, 4nr quotes in the £6K region indicates that they all thought the job would take a similar amount of time for whatever reason.
I agree, which is why I thought that was what the job would cost and why I stopped getting quotes. However they all overestimated the duration by 100%…I don’t know why, it was completely exposed.Excluding the £10K guy who obviously didn't want it, 4nr quotes in the £6K region indicates that they all thought the job would take a similar amount of time for whatever reason.
I am of the opinion that the prevailing thought was “you don’t get a new CH & HW system for £2000 labour, double that seems a good starting point”.
Unfortunately I’ve not commissioned this work before on such a small scale and always only as part of a much bigger job, so I didn’t have the knowledge to challenge the 10-man days of effort I was quoted - though I had my suspicions.
The £10k bloke definitely wanted the work, I think because he’d worked for me before (and has seen my main house) he just thought I would pay whatever he quoted.
nuyorican said:
Well you’ve kind of illustrated my point. You take on sub-contractors. I wouldn’t charge £45 per hour if I didn’t have to worry about anything other than stubbing out the spliff and getting to work on time…
With weighty respect that you work in London, and for your mathematical prowess at multiplying 45 into embigenned number, you’re still failing to understand that businesses have overheads. So I’m guessing you’re an employee?
And you can almost certainly guarantee the company he works for charge far more than they pay him when he goes out on a job. With weighty respect that you work in London, and for your mathematical prowess at multiplying 45 into embigenned number, you’re still failing to understand that businesses have overheads. So I’m guessing you’re an employee?
Edited by nuyorican on Monday 29th April 00:24
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
PhilboSE said:
I am of the opinion that the prevailing thought was “you don’t get a new CH & HW system for £2000 labour, double that seems a good starting point”.
That's exactly what I thought with the same job - barring anything unusual, I think they have a figure in mind for the job to make it worth their while so they give that price.Kwackersaki said:
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! wkers.
It’s a common problem. I struggle with it myself. When I’m working I don’t tend to answer the phone because I’m too busy, and out of respect to the client. It stays on silent. So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
I actually usually spend Mondays doing paperwork, quotes etc. But I know a lot of trades just kind of muddle through, working with the phone constantly in the crook of their neck, or just never getting round to it.
Well just had a quote from a decent enough sounding plumber to investigate the gas UFH system we have with a view to what needs replacing and what could be kept and re-used with an ASHP instead of the old inefficient gas boiler.
He's quoted 2 people for 1 whole day (so 2 days labour). Cost is £1059+vat so £1270.80 or £635 per day each as that's pure labour and no materials whatsoever. Even allowing half a day to write it up, that's still £508 per day each... Leeds area again.
He's quoted 2 people for 1 whole day (so 2 days labour). Cost is £1059+vat so £1270.80 or £635 per day each as that's pure labour and no materials whatsoever. Even allowing half a day to write it up, that's still £508 per day each... Leeds area again.
Edited by AdamV12V on Monday 29th April 16:06
AdamV12V said:
Well just had a quote from a decent enough sounding plumber to investigate the gas UFH system we have with a view to what needs replacing and what could be kept and re-used with an ASHP instead of the old inefficient gas boiler.
He's quoted 2 people for 1 whole day (so 2 days labour). Cost is £1059+vat so £1270.80 or £635 per day each as that's pure labour and no materials whatsoever. Even allowing half a day to write it up, that's still £508 per day each... Leeds area again.
And with ASHP's you wont exactly get a warm house at the end anyway. He's quoted 2 people for 1 whole day (so 2 days labour). Cost is £1059+vat so £1270.80 or £635 per day each as that's pure labour and no materials whatsoever. Even allowing half a day to write it up, that's still £508 per day each... Leeds area again.
Edited by AdamV12V on Monday 29th April 16:06
GeneralBanter said:
And with ASHP's you wont exactly get a warm house at the end anyway.
Not sure thats true really, but I may well have to modify the UF pipes. The existing system keeps the house warm and yet the floor never feels warm nor do the towel radiators, yet the house seems warm always. The killer is the 1960's boiler used £500 last month in gas so its hugely inefficient, and I dread to think what it will use in winter if its using that in spring. Pretty sure a pair of reasonably ASHP's could keep the floor at a steady 20C easily enough.AdamV12V said:
GeneralBanter said:
And with ASHP's you wont exactly get a warm house at the end anyway.
Not sure thats true really, but I may well have to modify the UF pipes. The existing system keeps the house warm and yet the floor never feels warm nor do the towel radiators, yet the house seems warm always. The killer is the 1960's boiler used £500 last month in gas so its hugely inefficient, and I dread to think what it will use in winter if its using that in spring. Pretty sure a pair of reasonably ASHP's could keep the floor at a steady 20C easily enough.OzzyR1 said:
Yep, reading back we definitely got crossed wires somehow - I was talking about PAYE subbies vs you from the POV of a sole-trader.
There is no such thing as a pay as you earn sub contractor, you’re either PAYE ( known in the trade as on the books) or you’re a sub contractor.Personally I’m a sub contractor and would never go PAYE, reading these threads is somewhat amusing, they also crop up every month or two now.
Promised Land said:
There is no such thing as a pay as you earn sub contractor, you’re either PAYE ( known in the trade as on the books) or you’re a sub contractor.
Personally I’m a sub contractor and would never go PAYE, reading these threads is somewhat amusing, they also crop up every month or two now.
Could be PAYE on the books of a contractor who only takes on subcontract work.Personally I’m a sub contractor and would never go PAYE, reading these threads is somewhat amusing, they also crop up every month or two now.
Doubt it somehow.
Promised Land said:
GeneralBanter said:
Could be PAYE on the books of a contractor who only takes on subcontract work.
Doubt it somehow.
Then the tradesman is PAYE, he’s not a subbie.Doubt it somehow.
All firms are contractors anyway.
Edited by GeneralBanter on Monday 29th April 20:25
Always funny reading some of the attitudes when threads like these pop up.
Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
The heating issue sounds very familiar. I'm in the process of getting a combi boiler to replace immersion heater hot water system and electric heaters. Like the OP I don't trust myself to do buried copper work but happy to do a lot of the prep myself so they can just come in and install pipe. I don't need a skilled plumber to remove the old water cylinder, chase out walls or build a concrete base for the oil tank.
Most seem very unwilling to take any of this into account. I expect they're thinking it will be easier to do everything themselves rather than relying on me for stuff which (they presume) I will do wrong too slow.
Most seem very unwilling to take any of this into account. I expect they're thinking it will be easier to do everything themselves rather than relying on me for stuff which (they presume) I will do wrong too slow.
paulwirral said:
I’ve had this all my working life , your ripping me off - charging to much .
I got sick in the end and gave up , I started telling people if it’s that easy do it yourself , surprisingly most are scared of heights and have no idea how to fix a roof , plaster a wall , tile a floor or carry out any other building related work to a standard I can .
A lot of college educated boys look down their noses at trades and seem to dismiss us as stupid and should be paid a pittance for the pleasure of working on their property, we all had an education , some were taught in a classroom and some were taught on a site , it’s the same and just because your parents paid for an education and told you lies about being superior to a humble workman your not .
Everyone is equal in my eyes .
I never had a problem paying an accountant for shuffling papers around and mixing a few figures up .
Nail on the head.I got sick in the end and gave up , I started telling people if it’s that easy do it yourself , surprisingly most are scared of heights and have no idea how to fix a roof , plaster a wall , tile a floor or carry out any other building related work to a standard I can .
A lot of college educated boys look down their noses at trades and seem to dismiss us as stupid and should be paid a pittance for the pleasure of working on their property, we all had an education , some were taught in a classroom and some were taught on a site , it’s the same and just because your parents paid for an education and told you lies about being superior to a humble workman your not .
Everyone is equal in my eyes .
I never had a problem paying an accountant for shuffling papers around and mixing a few figures up .
My mates a carpenter in a new build site, 5 mins from home and has been on the site about 6 years now, still has a few years in it.
After COVID he couldn't work enough hours up there and was 1 of a large amount on site, now he's pretty much the only 1 there, tends to finish about 4 most days now and early doors on a Friday.
He's a second fixer and gets paid after tax circa £1k per week.
He does jobs on the side of an evening and weekend (panelling, doors, skirting etc) and tends to get the materials from site and probably does another £500 a week on average.
His wife is a hairdresser who works all hours and gets paid cash as she is self employed and doesn't have a card reader.
They have a house you would expect a medium earner's to have but have extended it (through COVID with his mates from site who had furlough!) as can't get a big mortgage due to declared earnings.
They do however have lovely holidays and nice cars, clothes, jewelry etc.
Not a bad life at all, wish I'd done a trade lol
After COVID he couldn't work enough hours up there and was 1 of a large amount on site, now he's pretty much the only 1 there, tends to finish about 4 most days now and early doors on a Friday.
He's a second fixer and gets paid after tax circa £1k per week.
He does jobs on the side of an evening and weekend (panelling, doors, skirting etc) and tends to get the materials from site and probably does another £500 a week on average.
His wife is a hairdresser who works all hours and gets paid cash as she is self employed and doesn't have a card reader.
They have a house you would expect a medium earner's to have but have extended it (through COVID with his mates from site who had furlough!) as can't get a big mortgage due to declared earnings.
They do however have lovely holidays and nice cars, clothes, jewelry etc.
Not a bad life at all, wish I'd done a trade lol
OldPal said:
Always funny reading some of the attitudes when threads like these pop up.
Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
Eh??Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
GeneralBanter said:
Eh??
Job was a cinema, client didn’t want to fit stair nosings despite having the council trying to shut him down previously. Wanted a traditional fit with gripper rather than durafit style system. He had over 80 odd stairs over the 2 viewing rooms so was quite a considerable saving if he cut corners and risked getting caught. Probably worded the building control part wrongGassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff