Trade rates experience
Discussion
OldPal said:
Always funny reading some of the attitudes when threads like these pop up.
Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
That's awful to hear. surely he must have some idea of your travel time?Almost like some in the thread feel tradesmen should make zero profit, and should just take a meek wage so they can fund there alcoholism.
Here’s an alternative view on what’s happened to me recently:
Returning client whom nearly had his business shut down due to not being up to regs. Sorted it for him within 2 days.
Asks for quote for job, I’m extremely busy and his premises are an hour and a half away but I travel through in the evening and spend 2 hours measuring, working out a spec for him. Get home at 9pm. 5 hours so far (after doing 8 on the tools during the day)
Next day he phones and wants to add to the project which means I’ll need to do another site visit. Head through again in the evening after a shift on the tools ,just the 3 and a half hours this time. 8 1/2 hours so far
Spent an hour phoning suppliers to see who’s cheapest and another 2 doing the quote. 11 1/2 hours in total now
Send quote through and don’t hear anything for a week. Send him a text asking if the quote was okay.
“Price slightly too high, decided to use local carpet fitter”
In reality he has decided to go with cheap domestic carpets that wont last and have them fitted in a way that won’t pass building control. I could do the same but then I’d be on the hook and my reputation would take a hit.
So 11 and a half hours unpaid , the fuel and parking fees means I’m actually out of pocket because a client would rather cut corners and save cash than doing his job correctly.
Please don’t take this as a poor me type post, it’s part and parcel of the business and I move on to the next project but this is a regular occurrence for many in the trades.
I was also once asked to price a job in a garden centre the day before it started, midway through walking round the clients exact words to me where “ X company is starting tomorrow but I’m glad that I’ll have a price to compare against theirs. “
so I was never getting the job he was just going to use my price to beat down the other company!
We had an electrician do some work for us, he had a few stories of people knocking him when the issue was fixed and the boards were back down "i'll sort you out when the house sells etc"
Surely every job / business has a cost of acquisition for new work, this just sounds like one of those. We spent weeks of work on tenders for clients only to loose out on the work to another company for one reason or another all the time, that's just how it goes.
The question here is if the rates being charged now are normal or worthwhile.
Sure housing prices are high, so you may in the long run get your money back on any investments in renovating / improving your home, but if its your forever home and you are doing it just to make it nicer / better / warmer etc..., then its hard to get your head around the value of some of the trades prices being quoted at the moment.
Some trades for sure have a lot of skill and couldn't be done DIY, such as the regulated pieces of work, gas, electric, solar etc... and I think its fair to expect these trades to be at a premium over the others, but other things such as painting are far less skilled and it usually just comes down to the owners time.
The trouble seems to be that since Brexit (and Covid maybe?) the building trade has been inundated in work, so they can put up their prices and simply pick from the lowest lying fruit, as there's always someone willing to pay the first quote they get. Other factors such as the national cladding scandal are soaking up a lot of capacity and materials in the building trade, so I am sure they are filtering through to the prices smaller tradesmen are charging too.
The question here is if the rates being charged now are normal or worthwhile.
Sure housing prices are high, so you may in the long run get your money back on any investments in renovating / improving your home, but if its your forever home and you are doing it just to make it nicer / better / warmer etc..., then its hard to get your head around the value of some of the trades prices being quoted at the moment.
Some trades for sure have a lot of skill and couldn't be done DIY, such as the regulated pieces of work, gas, electric, solar etc... and I think its fair to expect these trades to be at a premium over the others, but other things such as painting are far less skilled and it usually just comes down to the owners time.
The trouble seems to be that since Brexit (and Covid maybe?) the building trade has been inundated in work, so they can put up their prices and simply pick from the lowest lying fruit, as there's always someone willing to pay the first quote they get. Other factors such as the national cladding scandal are soaking up a lot of capacity and materials in the building trade, so I am sure they are filtering through to the prices smaller tradesmen are charging too.
AdamV12V said:
Surely every job / business has a cost of acquisition for new work, this just sounds like one of those. We spent weeks of work on tenders for clients only to loose out on the work to another company for one reason or another all the time, that's just how it goes.
The question here is if the rates being charged now are normal or worthwhile.
Sure housing prices are high, so you may in the long run get your money back on any investments in renovating / improving your home, but if its your forever home and you are doing it just to make it nicer / better / warmer etc..., then its hard to get your head around the value of some of the trades prices being quoted at the moment.
Some trades for sure have a lot of skill and couldn't be done DIY, such as the regulated pieces of work, gas, electric, solar etc... and I think its fair to expect these trades to be at a premium over the others, but other things such as painting are far less skilled and it usually just comes down to the owners time.
The trouble seems to be that since Brexit (and Covid maybe?) the building trade has been inundated in work, so they can put up their prices and simply pick from the lowest lying fruit, as there's always someone willing to pay the first quote they get. Other factors such as the national cladding scandal are soaking up a lot of capacity and materials in the building trade, so I am sure they are filtering through to the prices smaller tradesmen are charging too.
Just sounds like supply and demand to me. The question here is if the rates being charged now are normal or worthwhile.
Sure housing prices are high, so you may in the long run get your money back on any investments in renovating / improving your home, but if its your forever home and you are doing it just to make it nicer / better / warmer etc..., then its hard to get your head around the value of some of the trades prices being quoted at the moment.
Some trades for sure have a lot of skill and couldn't be done DIY, such as the regulated pieces of work, gas, electric, solar etc... and I think its fair to expect these trades to be at a premium over the others, but other things such as painting are far less skilled and it usually just comes down to the owners time.
The trouble seems to be that since Brexit (and Covid maybe?) the building trade has been inundated in work, so they can put up their prices and simply pick from the lowest lying fruit, as there's always someone willing to pay the first quote they get. Other factors such as the national cladding scandal are soaking up a lot of capacity and materials in the building trade, so I am sure they are filtering through to the prices smaller tradesmen are charging too.
honest_delboy said:
That's awful to hear. surely he must have some idea of your travel time?
We had an electrician do some work for us, he had a few stories of people knocking him when the issue was fixed and the boards were back down "i'll sort you out when the house sells etc"
Can’t really blame the client to be honest, got to go where the work is and no one is forcing me to price it. I’d factored in travel time in the quote but as far as pricing goes I could never charge for giving a quoteWe had an electrician do some work for us, he had a few stories of people knocking him when the issue was fixed and the boards were back down "i'll sort you out when the house sells etc"
Lol you have to laugh at the infantile leernomics so tiresomely stuck on trades in these threads.
The guy I bought my van off charged me 25 grand after a 10 minute phone call, so I guess that extrapolates to £300M a year profearnings right? Not bad.
The guy I bought my van off charged me 25 grand after a 10 minute phone call, so I guess that extrapolates to £300M a year profearnings right? Not bad.
paulwirral said:
I’ve had this all my working life , your ripping me off - charging to much .
I got sick in the end and gave up , I started telling people if it’s that easy do it yourself , surprisingly most are scared of heights and have no idea how to fix a roof , plaster a wall , tile a floor or carry out any other building related work to a standard I can .
A lot of college educated boys look down their noses at trades and seem to dismiss us as stupid and should be paid a pittance for the pleasure of working on their property, we all had an education , some were taught in a classroom and some were taught on a site , it’s the same and just because your parents paid for an education and told you lies about being superior to a humble workman your not .
Everyone is equal in my eyes .
I never had a problem paying an accountant for shuffling papers around and mixing a few figures up .
The problem is, the snobbery is so culturally ingrained most participants cannot recognise the role theyre playing.I got sick in the end and gave up , I started telling people if it’s that easy do it yourself , surprisingly most are scared of heights and have no idea how to fix a roof , plaster a wall , tile a floor or carry out any other building related work to a standard I can .
A lot of college educated boys look down their noses at trades and seem to dismiss us as stupid and should be paid a pittance for the pleasure of working on their property, we all had an education , some were taught in a classroom and some were taught on a site , it’s the same and just because your parents paid for an education and told you lies about being superior to a humble workman your not .
Everyone is equal in my eyes .
I never had a problem paying an accountant for shuffling papers around and mixing a few figures up .
Kwackersaki said:
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.
It may be you are the common denominator, trades can sniff a nuisance customer a mile off and will not bother with them if they have plenty of work on.So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
I'm not saying you are as I don't know you, but it can be simple things like just tye way you speak to them or if you express that you know how they should be doing it.
Porsche-worm said:
Kwackersaki said:
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! wkers.
It may be you are the common denominator, trades can sniff a nuisance customer a mile off and will not bother with them if they have plenty of work on.So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
I'm not saying you are as I don't know you, but it can be simple things like just tye way you speak to them or if you express that you know how they should be doing it.
The funny thing with tradesman is that so many haven't got a clue what they should be charging and just follow the pack. What they should do is the same as any other business... first, establish costs:
Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
guitarcarfanatic said:
The funny thing with tradesman is that so many haven't got a clue what they should be charging and just follow the pack. What they should do is the same as any other business... first, establish costs:
Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
Bang on the money, last paragraph especially! Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
Too add to my previous post, had a phone call this afternoon that a 5 figure job for another returning client has went to another company, spoke to one of the maintenance staff who I usually quote to and turns out the building company has family ties with the managing director and my price was cheaper! Maintenance staff are raging as the company who got the contract are hopeless and they have just been completely bypassed for a bit of nepotism.
Only last week they asked me to finish two lifts so they could get them signed off. Obviously doing the crappy little jobs at next to no notice carries zero goodwill
guitarcarfanatic said:
The funny thing with tradesman is that so many haven't got a clue what they should be charging and just follow the pack. What they should do is the same as any other business... first, establish costs:
Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
Let’s break this down.Tools (amortised)
Vehicle
Fuel
Vehicle Insurance
Vehicle Tax
Vehicle Maintenance
Public Liability Ins
Professional Indemnity Insurance
Sickness/Accident Cover
Pension
Consumables
Etc
Then you add your desired salary - say £60k. Then you add your desired profit - say £20k (otherwise, you may as well get a PAYE job with all the benefits).
Take that total and divide by working days - 260 days, less 20 days holiday and 20 days of not being able to fill work = 220 days.
The final number is the day rate you should be charging. And if you can't charge that number, you either need to find better customers or get a PAYE job!
There is a market for decent tradesman though and you can charge top whack - just turn up when you say you will, look presentable, carry a conversation, price condition the customer during the visit, get the quote out when you say you will, pick up the phone when needed etc, do a good job etc. People will pay a premium for that!
You want a £60k salary, and then you want £20k “profit”. WTF is “profit” on top of salary? For self employed it’s all take home. It might be treated differently (more favourably) for tax if the “profit” is in a ltd company vs PAYE, buts it’s all income for you.
Then you want 20 days holiday, and you want to make the numbers above even if you have 20 slack days. So that’s 40 days not actually working for your £80k.
Then you want all the costs of being a trader to be covered so you actually get your £80k in your hand.
Now compare that with the PAYE market of your customers. The market says “the salary for your middle manager job is £50k”.
Out of that comes N.I., the bulk of any pension contributions, the £3000 after tax cost of a season ticket, you get to spend 3 hours a day commuting on a packed train, and you get 20 days holiday. Oh and probably no overtime for any extra hours you may be expected to work.
Sorry but the argument you just made there makes it clear why people might think you’re having a laugh because to get an equivalent PAYE package to your trader numbers above you’d need to be on £120k+ and that’s obviously a tiny fraction of the market.
Even so, all your numbers above are easily covered by the plumber who quoted me he wanted £400 per day and then ended up taking home double that.
I’ve got no objection to decent trades making a decent living but for whatever reason the domestic market is now a very happy hunting ground for trades and all the bleating in the world about slack days and business overheads doesn’t change the fact that your take home income, on your numbers above, puts you at least x4 the national average with twice as many days not working.
The fact is, life is pretty good for most half-sensible trade guys right now.
Maybe it should be. It’s not like most PAYE are labouring away in the mines and factories any more.
There’s a good argument that someone stacking shelves or sitting in an air conditioned call centre with full benefits probably shouldn’t get paid the same as a guy that has to go out and find their own work and then do it with their own tools and guarantee it with their own time.
But charging 10 days for doing it in 5 and £400 a day for picking up a paint brush is still taking the piss a bit.
Maybe it should be. It’s not like most PAYE are labouring away in the mines and factories any more.
There’s a good argument that someone stacking shelves or sitting in an air conditioned call centre with full benefits probably shouldn’t get paid the same as a guy that has to go out and find their own work and then do it with their own tools and guarantee it with their own time.
But charging 10 days for doing it in 5 and £400 a day for picking up a paint brush is still taking the piss a bit.
Every job I’ve had done I either agree a fixed price I’m happy with, or a day rate. I’ve never had a day rate over £140 but the last work was a major electrical problem that took 18 hours over 4 visits over 2 weeks and a cost of £610. Given the nature of the problem (short in hidden wiring) and the potential carnage of opening up large areas of lath & plaster it was well worth it.
Porsche-worm said:
Kwackersaki said:
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! wkers.
It may be you are the common denominator, trades can sniff a nuisance customer a mile off and will not bother with them if they have plenty of work on.So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
I'm not saying you are as I don't know you, but it can be simple things like just tye way you speak to them or if you express that you know how they should be doing it.
It always makes me laugh when someone that doesn’t work in the trades comes out with comments like this. There’s almost an air of superiority that they could do the job themselves as it’s below them when 99% of the time they wouldn’t cut it as the tradesman’s laborer for a week.
There’s many a downside to working in any of the trades over a nice clean, comfy office job but the biggest positive is that if you get to the stage you can put out good quality work at a fast pace and are prepared to knock your pan in the earning potential will make a payee desk worker spit their coffee over their keyboard…. Much like this thread
There’s many a downside to working in any of the trades over a nice clean, comfy office job but the biggest positive is that if you get to the stage you can put out good quality work at a fast pace and are prepared to knock your pan in the earning potential will make a payee desk worker spit their coffee over their keyboard…. Much like this thread
PhilboSE said:
Let’s break this down.
You want a £60k salary, and then you want £20k “profit”. WTF is “profit” on top of salary? For self employed it’s all take home. It might be treated differently (more favourably) for tax if the “profit” is in a ltd company vs PAYE, buts it’s all income for you.
Then you want 20 days holiday, and you want to make the numbers above even if you have 20 slack days. So that’s 40 days not actually working for your £80k.
Then you want all the costs of being a trader to be covered so you actually get your £80k in your hand.
Now compare that with the PAYE market of your customers. The market says “the salary for your middle manager job is £50k”.
Out of that comes N.I., the bulk of any pension contributions, the £3000 after tax cost of a season ticket, you get to spend 3 hours a day commuting on a packed train, and you get 20 days holiday. Oh and probably no overtime for any extra hours you may be expected to work.
Sorry but the argument you just made there makes it clear why people might think you’re having a laugh because to get an equivalent PAYE package to your trader numbers above you’d need to be on £120k+ and that’s obviously a tiny fraction of the market.
Even so, all your numbers above are easily covered by the plumber who quoted me he wanted £400 per day and then ended up taking home double that.
I’ve got no objection to decent trades making a decent living but for whatever reason the domestic market is now a very happy hunting ground for trades and all the bleating in the world about slack days and business overheads doesn’t change the fact that your take home income, on your numbers above, puts you at least x4 the national average with twice as many days not working.
Ignore the figures - it's more the illustration. You need to cover salary and make profit on top - otherwise, plenty of PAYE jobs for tradesman (with benefits) for £50-60k. No travel costs. Pension contribution. Sick Pay. Overtime paid etc. You want a £60k salary, and then you want £20k “profit”. WTF is “profit” on top of salary? For self employed it’s all take home. It might be treated differently (more favourably) for tax if the “profit” is in a ltd company vs PAYE, buts it’s all income for you.
Then you want 20 days holiday, and you want to make the numbers above even if you have 20 slack days. So that’s 40 days not actually working for your £80k.
Then you want all the costs of being a trader to be covered so you actually get your £80k in your hand.
Now compare that with the PAYE market of your customers. The market says “the salary for your middle manager job is £50k”.
Out of that comes N.I., the bulk of any pension contributions, the £3000 after tax cost of a season ticket, you get to spend 3 hours a day commuting on a packed train, and you get 20 days holiday. Oh and probably no overtime for any extra hours you may be expected to work.
Sorry but the argument you just made there makes it clear why people might think you’re having a laugh because to get an equivalent PAYE package to your trader numbers above you’d need to be on £120k+ and that’s obviously a tiny fraction of the market.
Even so, all your numbers above are easily covered by the plumber who quoted me he wanted £400 per day and then ended up taking home double that.
I’ve got no objection to decent trades making a decent living but for whatever reason the domestic market is now a very happy hunting ground for trades and all the bleating in the world about slack days and business overheads doesn’t change the fact that your take home income, on your numbers above, puts you at least x4 the national average with twice as many days not working.
My point is, most tradesman don't do this so have no idea what they should be charging. A skilled tradesman, doing all the good things I outlined above can absolutely charge £300 a day - if not, find better customers. There is no shortage of work and good reliable skilled tradesman should absolutely be maximising this opportunity!
guitarcarfanatic said:
Ignore the figures - it's more the illustration. You need to cover salary and make profit on top - otherwise, plenty of PAYE jobs for tradesman (with benefits) for £50-60k. No travel costs. Pension contribution. Sick Pay. Overtime paid etc.
My point is, most tradesman don't do this so have no idea what they should be charging. A skilled tradesman, doing all the good things I outlined above can absolutely charge £300 a day - if not, find better customers. There is no shortage of work and good reliable skilled tradesman should absolutely be maximising this opportunity!
There is no PAYE tradesmen’s jobs near me for anything like £50-60k a year, more like £28-35k a year. My point is, most tradesman don't do this so have no idea what they should be charging. A skilled tradesman, doing all the good things I outlined above can absolutely charge £300 a day - if not, find better customers. There is no shortage of work and good reliable skilled tradesman should absolutely be maximising this opportunity!
Sick pay will be SSP, holidays the legal minimum, pension contributions again the legal minimum and you still will need to supply your own tools.
neth27 said:
There is no PAYE tradesmen’s jobs near me for anything like £50-60k a year, more like £28-35k a year.
Sick pay will be SSP, holidays the legal minimum, pension contributions again the legal minimum and you still will need to supply your own tools.
That is not far from the reality for many of the trades if someone is going through the door without an introduction.Sick pay will be SSP, holidays the legal minimum, pension contributions again the legal minimum and you still will need to supply your own tools.
Gas and electrical is certainly different with British gas starting newly qualified engineers on 48k including bonus…. While good old Pimlico plumbers claim potential earnings of 120k for Gas or 100k for electricians - read that how you may - it’s certainly not a 120k payee job being offered but it’s a world away from 30k and barely arguably better than earning 60k self employed
. Plenty of smart meter installer jobs with salaries ranging 40-65k.Black_S3 said:
Gas and electrical is certainly different with British gas starting newly qualified engineers on 48k including bonus….
I'm not sure that's the case to be honest (or maybe it varies by region). My mate was a Gas Engineer for BG, his salary was £35k and the targets were ridiculous (this was back when they were striking). he works for a Housing Association now - same salary, far less pressure.GeneralBanter said:
Porsche-worm said:
Kwackersaki said:
For those that have had work done, you should be grateful they’ve actually quoted and turned up.
So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! wkers.
It may be you are the common denominator, trades can sniff a nuisance customer a mile off and will not bother with them if they have plenty of work on.So far, for some light building and roofing work we’ve had them turn up to quote and say they’ll do the work when the weather improves then when it finally does, it’s always “in two weeks time” which never arrives. Then they ignore your calls.
Or, I’ll send a quote in a few days, which really means nearly 6 weeks later and then, for a new valley and small dry verge installation, it’s a third of the price of a complete new roof.
Or, I’ll quote you this weekend, actually 2 months later and then they’ve missed half of what you asked for.
Or, I’ll be round next week to start and I’m still waiting two weeks later with no update.
Forgot one! Roofer’s working just down the road so wander down to speak to them.
“Yes we’ll pop up to quote”
“What time roughly and I’ll make sure I’m in”
“About 3pm when we finish here.
Come 3.30 and watch them drive past up the road! w
kers.Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:45
Edited by Kwackersaki on Monday 29th April 10:46
I'm not saying you are as I don't know you, but it can be simple things like just tye way you speak to them or if you express that you know how they should be doing it.
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