Discussion
RumbleOfThunder said:
Purosangue said:
John87 said:
Some interesting quotes here considering I just had a patio put in albeit in Scotland.
I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
they wont be in business long with prices like that 25m2 x3 days work not possible to make a profit I had roughly 25m2 in an odd shaped corner so cuts on 3 sides. The area was originally sloping so was dug out about 8 inches at the lowest point to about 18 inches at the top of the slope to leave it close to level. Then there was MOT type 1 compacted, full mortar bed, small sleeper retaining wall against the slope, Indian sandstone paving and a brush in jointing compound at the end.
Total cost was £2700+ vat
£3240 = £129 m2
muck away £500
MOT £500
Sand £200
Cement £120
indian sandstone 25 x £38= £950
easy joint £200
digger hire £170
sleepers £30 x 6 = £180
fuel van £50
total £2,870
labour x 2 men on minimum wage at £10hr x 8 hrs = £80 x2 =£160 x3 days = £480
= £3,350 ???? overbudget with no profit doesn't make sense
I do ,
Survey all the time south of England
based on 25m2 of typical Indian Sandstone with good access for raw materials
average quote would be nearer £250m2 nearer £6,250
paulrockliffe said:
Purosangue said:
If your a father and son outfit , yes you can make a decent profit , its a different story for an established VAT registered building company who have time served surveyors , and a team of professional carpenters , builders etc , running an office and warehouse and are prepared to guarantee their work , not much profit to be made competing on a small patio
an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
That seems like a lot to me, because you've not done any of the work, just organised other people to do it for you. The real profit in the job is your £800 plus the £2,500 that the people doing the actual building took out of the job as well.an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 29th April 22:39
to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
Purosangue said:
£ 2,500 is not profit its the wages the company has paid out for the install team , and £ 500 for company expenses doesn't really cover the full cost , of office rental , warehouse rental , electric rates ,. water rates , Indemnity insurance , commercial vehicle insurance , office supplies , admin , vehicle maintenance , etc
to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
Yeah, should be at least £50K for a 25m2 patio......to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
Sorry, but builders are taking the piss.
carlo996 said:
Purosangue said:
£ 2,500 is not profit its the wages the company has paid out for the install team , and £ 500 for company expenses doesn't really cover the full cost , of office rental , warehouse rental , electric rates ,. water rates , Indemnity insurance , commercial vehicle insurance , office supplies , admin , vehicle maintenance , etc
to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
Yeah, should be at least £50K for a 25m2 patio......to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
Sorry, but builders are taking the piss.
Petrol for Ferraris doesn't grow on trees
We did our paved area in Summer 2022; it's approx 70 sq metres.
The total cost in the end was about £16k; ie. £230 per sq metre.
The paving is just reconstituted stone (aka 'concrete') slabs, which you'd think would be cheap but aren't (but they are good quality, imported from France, and at least they're not mined by little slave kids like the Indian Sandstone is).
The cost was way in excess of anything I'd anticipated, partly because:
The total cost in the end was about £16k; ie. £230 per sq metre.
The paving is just reconstituted stone (aka 'concrete') slabs, which you'd think would be cheap but aren't (but they are good quality, imported from France, and at least they're not mined by little slave kids like the Indian Sandstone is).
The cost was way in excess of anything I'd anticipated, partly because:
- existing paving had to be removed first;
- ground was unstable and required a serious depth of excavation (with all the additional muck removal and MOT that implies);
- system of perf pipes and land drains needed to be dug - extending beyond the paved area;
- concrete base was put down over the whole area (price of concrete doubled, for no obvious reason);
- original paving contractor had to be replaced at short notice;
- replacement contractor had to be brought in from a different part of the country and put up in a hotel during the work;
- jointing done properly; ie not brushed-in "easy joint"
Edited by gregch on Friday 3rd May 12:17
Purosangue said:
£ 2,500 is not profit its the wages the company has paid out for the install team , and £ 500 for company expenses doesn't really cover the full cost , of office rental , warehouse rental , electric rates ,. water rates , Indemnity insurance , commercial vehicle insurance , office supplies , admin , vehicle maintenance , etc
to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
People are talking about what it costs to get a patio done. You're telling us what it costs to pay you to manage 5 other people to get a patio done. to make any real money factor in the material cost , labour cost and add 30%
When you talk about profit, you're talking about profit on the overhead of you organising the job, what your customers would see as your commission for organising all the stuff and generally making sure the job runs smoothly.
£800 for what you do may or may not be a lot or a little, but either way it's misleading to say there's no money in the job, when the reality is that the people that actually did the job made good money and you were well paid for organising it as well.
JuanCarlosFandango said:
8% a week is still 416% a year. Any shares going?
8% on a job that takes a week would still be 8% across a full year, if all the jobs shared this profit margin.Or,
£800 a week would be say £32k over a year assuming there are 40 weeks a year when paving can be laid in the UK. (Though that seems too high given the weather recently).
I diy wherever possible, but I am beginning to see downsides of trying to juggle my own employment, personal time, family things and then another "full time" DIY job. What would take 3-4 weeks trade ends up 9-10 months diy.
So by saving DIY I have also incurred an opportunity cost of not having the finished product to enjoy in the same timescale.
When I move onto my garden project next (was supposed to be this spring) I might well pay some blokes to remove the old stuff first, as carting it round in my barrow and taking it to a (free) recycling place in my car boot just absorbs so much time.
Ps - some of the quotes look steep in that listing
Ie sand £100 per 800 kg face value from Travis Perkins - can get it nearer £70 shopping round (delivered by TP funnily enough). Cement is £7 a bag at b and q, and whilst Travis Perkins charge over £8 that's the punter price - there's no way trades pay that.
Having said that, shopping round takes my time up, whereas a business will just want convenience - ultimately they're not paying for it and will still want their profit from the job.
Ian Geary said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
8% a week is still 416% a year. Any shares going?
8% on a job that takes a week would still be 8% across a full year, if all the jobs shared this profit margin..
its all about pre planning
1st survey looks at Access / Egress , delivery options where ever possible , grab lorries are used to remove waste deliver MOT / sand etc.
each job project managed with customer , if there are any changes they have a point of contact , written contract so if any deviation its a DOC ( deviation of contract ) example extras requested by for client , point is they know where they are 50% deposit . then balance on completion.
pre install date , boards are placed on the drive so no mess for the customer also minimises clean up time.
day 1 install team 07:00 at warehouse, safety brief with construction manager usually 2-3 men with lead. covers south of UK from London around 250 mile radius , all tools equipment are ready in advance . each van inventoried
team have to be on location by 08:30 if that means the job is 250 miles away , then its planned ,with team / hotel option etc all materials are allocated for the job to be at job site or scheduled delivery .
waste is taken wherever possible to be recycled ie concrete / rubble broken to make MOT then reused.
normally mini excavator on site , so dig out then Grab lorry by 11:00 -13:00 grab lorry returns with MOT , area levelled . delivery of paving
Day 2 install paving
Day 3 finish install paving
Day 4 Easy Joint , clean down , remove boards pressure wash clean area .
that's the team working 07:00 - 17:00 on average.
All vehicles are on average 3 years old , team have good PPE and are all time served good tools , lead hand is in charge of making sure tools are in good condition same as vans fitted with tracker / Cameras and IVMS , drivers are HGV / trailer licensed clean driving license / normally had additional driver training 2 advanced or defensive driver "
first aider on every team
10 year guarantee on all jobs , lots are repeat customers , start on a drive , then its a full loft conversion etc.
point is everyone on the team has a sense of pride , all money is put back into the company ... yes you could drive around in a B reg transit , break down then faff about picking up bags of cement and waste time not actually on the job , its all about planning , good communication , transparency , and good reputation ,
yes you can buy a Ford or a Maserati the choice is yours
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 6th May 10:37
Ian Geary said:
JuanCarlosFandango said:
8% a week is still 416% a year. Any shares going?
8% on a job that takes a week would still be 8% across a full year, if all the jobs shared this profit margin.Or,
£800 a week would be say £32k over a year assuming there are 40 weeks a year when paving can be laid in the UK. (Though that seems too high given the weather recently).
Purosangue said:
If your a father and son outfit , yes you can make a decent profit , its a different story for an established VAT registered building company who have time served surveyors , and a team of professional carpenters , builders etc , running an office and warehouse and are prepared to guarantee their work , not much profit to be made competing on a small patio
an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Probably the reason why most folk get a father and son outfit or a small scale landscaper for such jobs. You're then not paying for all those unnecessary (for your project) overheads. Also don't understand why an outfit with all those specialist trades, office and a warehouse are still hiring tools for simple jobs.an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 29th April 22:39
I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
nunpuncher said:
Probably the reason why most folk get a father and son outfit or a small scale landscaper for such jobs. You're then not paying for all those unnecessary (for your project) overheads. Also don't understand why an outfit with all those specialist trades, office and a warehouse are still hiring tools for simple jobs.
I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
Problem is £200 for a farmer who is not declaring it, no VAT, probably doesn’t have a waste licence etc. All reasons why a reputable contractor can’t use the farmer.I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
A small industrial storage unit might well have an office in it, and what is a warehouse if it isn’t a storage unit? On a per square foot basis the smaller the unit the more you pay. Also of the small contractor pays £x per week they are probably paying more per year than some one paying £y per foot pays per year.
How much profit do we expect a business to make? Not forgetting you need to factor in holiday and sick pay, pensions, maintenance of equipment, and a sinking fund for kit replacement.
Chrisgr31 said:
nunpuncher said:
Probably the reason why most folk get a father and son outfit or a small scale landscaper for such jobs. You're then not paying for all those unnecessary (for your project) overheads. Also don't understand why an outfit with all those specialist trades, office and a warehouse are still hiring tools for simple jobs.
I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
Problem is £200 for a farmer who is not declaring it, no VAT, probably doesn’t have a waste licence etc. All reasons why a reputable contractor can’t use the farmer.I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
A small industrial storage unit might well have an office in it, and what is a warehouse if it isn’t a storage unit? On a per square foot basis the smaller the unit the more you pay. Also of the small contractor pays £x per week they are probably paying more per year than some one paying £y per foot pays per year.
How much profit do we expect a business to make? Not forgetting you need to factor in holiday and sick pay, pensions, maintenance of equipment, and a sinking fund for kit replacement.
- guy didn't have a Ferrari so no extra fuel expenses.
nunpuncher said:
Purosangue said:
If your a father and son outfit , yes you can make a decent profit , its a different story for an established VAT registered building company who have time served surveyors , and a team of professional carpenters , builders etc , running an office and warehouse and are prepared to guarantee their work , not much profit to be made competing on a small patio
an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Probably the reason why most folk get a father and son outfit or a small scale landscaper for such jobs. You're then not paying for all those unnecessary (for your project) overheads. Also don't understand why an outfit with all those specialist trades, office and a warehouse are still hiring tools for simple jobs.an example for a 50m2 patio
£12,000 Vat registered company after VAT deductions 20%
so your looking at £10,000 figure
- muck away cost if its wet soil / rubble = 15m3 or 22 tons so x2 grab lorries = £1,000
- 150mm of crushed limestone MOT 7.5m3 0r 15 tons = £850
- 4.5 tons sharp sand = £450
- 800 kg cement = 32 bags = £240
-easy joint tubs £63.50 x8 = £508
- dt stone = 50m2 mint antiqued sandstone £ 42 +VAT = £50.4 = £2,520 edit you always order + 6% extra tiles for cutting etc = 53m2= £2,671
digger hire = £170
tools / compactor hire = £100
labour 5 days 3 men 500 x 5 = £2,500
fuel = £150
vehicles / company overheads = £500
= profit £800
that's not a lot of profit
Edited by Purosangue on Monday 29th April 22:39
I've just started my own 45sqm patio project. Paid a man with a digger to clear the area, paid a farmer £200 to take the waste that was dug out. I'm looking at about £3-4k total depending on the slabs I go for. That includes buying a few specific tools for the job like a cutter, mixer and renting a compactor. Quotes ranged from £8k for some random guy off Facebook to £12k for a local outfit who have recently been doing a lot of commercial work for Gregs and Starbucks. Despite this they just have a small industrial storage unit, not an office or warehouse.
Interestingly enough a friend in work did get the commercial outfit to do his garden recently. Also quoted him £12k then cut the price down to £8k without much effort.
Smart way of working and the residential jobs are completed by teams with a greater skill set not normally allocated to these types of jobs.
the customer is happy as he gets a very professional job
Edited by Purosangue on Tuesday 7th May 23:00
sc0tt said:
Update: I have had an text. He has contacted his barrister and told them that I was up for a claim all along. This is my fault that I walked on them and pulled up a perfectly good patio.
He was going to sort it but after my actions he won’t be.
Sounds like an idle threat to me. I appreciate there's some cross over but a Barrister mainly defends people in court and a Solicitor mainly does the stuff outside the courtroom........so he's either been in court a lot and built up a relationship with a Barrister or he's just name dropping to make you think he's actually sought legal advice which in my view is what he's probably doing!He was going to sort it but after my actions he won’t be.
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