Vulnerability in 50mph zones
Discussion
At 69 years old, I think that I’ve had the very best years of driving in the UK. Unfortunately, they are truly in the past. I have reached a point now, where going somewhere has become a chore, rather than something to look forward to. I share the OPs concerns about average speed zones on motorways, particularly during busy periods, because you are traveling in a block of traffic, all doing pretty much the same speed and only separated by a few feet. I’m fortunate that for the most part, I don’t have to travel during particularly busy times.
What does boil my p155, is traveling through these zones late at night/early morning, on a largely empty motorway, where 50 seems like walking pace. I get all the arguments about road works being done overnight and the safety of the workers being paramount, but when you’ve traveled for miles without seeing anyone doing anything, it is a massively frustrating waste of my time, even if it has made my fuel consumption look better.
What does boil my p155, is traveling through these zones late at night/early morning, on a largely empty motorway, where 50 seems like walking pace. I get all the arguments about road works being done overnight and the safety of the workers being paramount, but when you’ve traveled for miles without seeing anyone doing anything, it is a massively frustrating waste of my time, even if it has made my fuel consumption look better.
Steve vRS said:
What is the consensus on the maximum average speed you can do in an average speed camera enforced roadworks section of a motorway. I have always set my cruise control at 53 mph (BMW or Skoda - I guess all manufacturers are different) and never had a ticket but wonder if 55 or even 60 is safe from NIPs?
53 mph indicated IMHO you will be fine. By law, all UK speedos cannot underread. Almost all overread by a few mph. For example, my Skoda overreads by 4 mph.
Averages aren't maximums, and for a few mph over the limit, they don't
bother issuing fines. You would have to average at least 55 mph real to even
get near to being fined. So if you never go over indicated 60 mph, you should be ok.
I sit at 55-60 mph indicated in a 50, have done so for years and I'm still
waiting for my first fine.
Time is money and you can't measure safe driving in mph.
craig1912 said:
M27 is awful at the moment. Middle lane is too narrow (although Highway Agency says it’s not). Some signs telling HGVs to stay on inside lane (but some don’t) and when they don’t they straddle the lanes. Wide vans and tow trucks are too wide for middle lane. I either stay on inside or outside lanes and stick cruise on 56 where I can.
Lane widths are often daft these days for a truck, even outside the roadworks. Some stretches of the M6 in lane 2 or 3 it only feels like you have a few inches either side to play with and half the time the bloody lines aren't even painted straight enough to make the width consistent.
The long stretches of average speed can be nerve-wracking in my yank RV, you basically have a choice between sitting in the inside line doing 50mph and hoping a psychopathic Turner's lorry sat on his limiter weaving in and out of the MLMs doesn't take your mirror off, or going with the flow at 52/53mph and hoping you don't get caught in between a van on the outside and a slower truck on the inside at the point where the bloke driving the line painting truck checked his Facebook and made it a foot narrower.
dcb said:
Steve vRS said:
What is the consensus on the maximum average speed you can do in an average speed camera enforced roadworks section of a motorway. I have always set my cruise control at 53 mph (BMW or Skoda - I guess all manufacturers are different) and never had a ticket but wonder if 55 or even 60 is safe from NIPs?
53 mph indicated IMHO you will be fine. By law, all UK speedos cannot underread. Almost all overread by a few mph. For example, my Skoda overreads by 4 mph.
Averages aren't maximums, and for a few mph over the limit, they don't
bother issuing fines. You would have to average at least 55 mph real to even
get near to being fined. So if you never go over indicated 60 mph, you should be ok.
I sit at 55-60 mph indicated in a 50, have done so for years and I'm still
waiting for my first fine.
Time is money and you can't measure safe driving in mph.
Reading all the comments it appears I'm definitely not the only one - I was expecting a good old PH flaming met with suggestions of "It's your fault there are roadworks you piece of scum! 
"
In all seriousness though, with these going on all over the UK on a daily basis there must be a fair few accidents reported when you consider how dangerous they are. Presumably statistics are swept upder the carpet for 'the greater good'.
" In all seriousness though, with these going on all over the UK on a daily basis there must be a fair few accidents reported when you consider how dangerous they are. Presumably statistics are swept upder the carpet for 'the greater good'.
Steve vRS said:
What is the consensus on the maximum average speed you can do in an average speed camera enforced roadworks section of a motorway. I have always set my cruise control at 53 mph (BMW or Skoda - I guess all manufacturers are different) and never had a ticket but wonder if 55 or even 60 is safe from NIPs?
The thresholds appear to be the same for average speed zones and fixed cameras. Quite often temporary average cameras don't even work at all. Take the ones set up while the Forth bridge replacement was being built, it took a while for me to work out but given the length of time they were there i was glad i finally did a north bound run that would have incurred 3 points and 100 quid fine had they been working.I was pretty confident they didn't work prior to finding out due to seeing a few works vehicles clearly not worried about them. When it was busy the traffic level dictated the speed but as most of my journeys from south of the bridge to Fife were done at daft o clock it was a pain in the arse trying to sit at 40 mph on an empty road.
To be fair not all fixed cameras appear to work either. I can remember trying to trigger the one just before going under the Newbridge roundabout in a mates car about 25 years ago, he hadn't been driving long (i usually drove even though 3 of us were alternating cars every week travelling to comps, because i was quicker) and wanted to see what it was like setting one off. Went through indicating 20mph over limit, camera flashed and he didn't hear anything about it. Maybe it wasn't working that day, i tend to go through there at an indicated 60mph these days when i'm travelling in the early hours.
That's also a good area to practice your unmarked car spotting. In the last ten years i've been pulled 3 times at daft o clock in the morning by unmarked cars that i saw either on the roundabout or the slip road coming off it. Never got a ticket from any of them as by the time they caught up i was back down to legal speeds. All the years doing silly speeds on bikes results in generally good observation skills at all times, anyone that enjoys driving/riding in a brisk manner should make a point of getting good at the game. I still pick up the odd 3 points now and again and 100 quid fine, i just look at it as pay to play, my last id form was addressed to the Go Faster Tax Collection department at my local safety camera office
Any route that i use regularly that has cameras i will gradually up the speed to find out if the speed i want to travel at will cause me a problem. Knowing what the thresholds are gives me options. On the A90 it means sitting at an indicated 80mph which usually means not doing miles with another car sat right next to me and even then it would appear people using the road every day have worked out you can travel a few miles an hour faster than that without worry as i still get passed now and again.
I drive hgv’s and some of these roadwork sections the lane widths are a joke, literally a couple inches either side, mirrors probably over the line. Only takes a gust of wind or camber change and you’ll be over the line into the next lane.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Edited by Glenn63 on Thursday 2nd May 14:05
Glenn63 said:
I drive hgv’s and some of these roadwork sections the lane widths are a joke, literally a couple inches either side, mirrors probably over the line. Only takes a gust of wind or camber change and you’ll be over the line into the next lane.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
For me anyone in a car regularly getting passed by HGV's should have their licence revoked as it shows a lack of basic competence. On most of the routes i use regularly the HGV's are the vehicles i worry about the least, white vans with the driver texting seem to be the worst. I love the A75 in the early hours of the morning when there is a ferry load of Irish HGV's on it, get to see some great rapid driving of them, always impressive to see a vehicle that size pick a line through the twisties at 70mph and the odd very interesting one that is even quicker. As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Edited by Glenn63 on Thursday 2nd May 14:05
There is one i have seen twice with what must be the most distinctive plate in the farming industry, not sure if a Scottish or Irish truck, that i had an indicated 85 mph when creeping past on an uphill section of the M74, god knows how rapid it would be on the flat or downhill. He does need to sort the headlights out though, just a wall of diffracted white light as the bulbs are definitely not suitable for the lenses they are behind.
A good few years back i also had a great drive down the A702 behind what i think was a sheep transporter. It was absolutely chucking it down and it never dropped below an indicated 60mph and only crossed the centre of the road a couple of times on bends where there was a good line of sight for several hundred yards. Probably the only time i have ever sat behind a lorry for that length of time and never felt the need to pass outside of the aforementioned A75, it was really enjoyable to watch, smooth driving very reminiscent of following Police riders or Drivers.
Last time I drove to the Lake District I spent the whole sector from Settle roundabout on the A65 to Kirkby Lonsdale with a large truck (one step down from an artic) right up my arse. Speed limit 50 all the way and speed cameras so I couldn't do 60 to get rid of the bugger. I wish to god the police would make themselves useful and do something about f
king tailgaters - they're by far the biggest pain in the arse on the roads.
king tailgaters - they're by far the biggest pain in the arse on the roads.swisstoni said:
The M4 near me went ‘smart’ over the course of about 4 years (not to mention the best part of a £billion).
There was a 50 limit for over 15 miles with 3 narrowed lanes.
That was not fun at 7am in all sorts of weather.
I avoided staying next to vehicles in adjacent lanes by making sure we were doing slightly different speeds.
For me that meant about 53mph sat nav speed.
Yes I found that very frustrating as well. There was a 50 limit for over 15 miles with 3 narrowed lanes.
That was not fun at 7am in all sorts of weather.
I avoided staying next to vehicles in adjacent lanes by making sure we were doing slightly different speeds.
For me that meant about 53mph sat nav speed.
I took to taking the road down to the M3 and joining the M25 there. Probable not much in it, if anything, time wise but sitting on a motorway at 50 is one of the most mind numbing experiences possible.
MitchT said:
Last time I drove to the Lake District I spent the whole sector from Settle roundabout on the A65 to Kirkby Lonsdale with a large truck (one step down from an artic) right up my arse. Speed limit 50 all the way and speed cameras so I couldn't do 60 to get rid of the bugger. I wish to god the police would make themselves useful and do something about fking tailgaters - they're by far the biggest pain in the arse on the roads.
I once noted to a friend in the US that people tailgate less than the UK morons (especially aking tailgaters - they're by far the biggest pain in the arse on the roads.hole truck drivers). His response was 'we have guns and we shoot them'. Seems fair to me.8IKERDAVE said:
Reading all the comments it appears I'm definitely not the only one - I was expecting a good old PH flaming met with suggestions of "It's your fault there are roadworks you piece of scum! "
In all seriousness though, with these going on all over the UK on a daily basis there must be a fair few accidents reported when you consider how dangerous they are. Presumably statistics are swept upder the carpet for 'the greater good'.
What are dangerous, the roadworks or the 50mph limits? If it's the latter, would the roadworks be safer with the normal 70mph limit? " In all seriousness though, with these going on all over the UK on a daily basis there must be a fair few accidents reported when you consider how dangerous they are. Presumably statistics are swept upder the carpet for 'the greater good'.
Glenn63 said:
I drive hgv’s and some of these roadwork sections the lane widths are a joke, literally a couple inches either side, mirrors probably over the line. Only takes a gust of wind or camber change and you’ll be over the line into the next lane.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Doesn't matter whether your dash says they're doing 45, 50 or 120, that driver will be driving in accordance with the speedometer that is installed in their vehicle, not in accordance with whatever speed is displayed in your Scania. It's not the job of HGV drivers to usher along car drivers, who are driving at or around the speed limits in accordance to their own instrumentation. As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Edited by Glenn63 on Thursday 2nd May 14:05
If the HGV driver feels that a car ahead could squeak out a couple more MPH according to the HGV speedo, they should not use the size of their wagon to intimidate the car driver into speeding up. They should simply maintain a safe following distance, then pull out and overtake when able.
On a daily basis I see HGV drivers right up the arses of cars in front, despite congestion meaning there is nowhere for that car to go. Driving a large lorry carries high levels of responsibility, however it's a shame that some HGV drivers seem to deem outright size and weight as a bullying weapon against other road users.
Only yesterday I had an HGV up my chuff on the motorway, 50 on the gantries, I'm doing an indicated 53, in L1, with another lorry infront. Why the HGV behind couldn't just overtake, I have no idea. Instead riding my bumper was apparently the answer, with absolutely f
k-all regard for what would happen to me or my rear seat passengers if his tailgating resulted in his cab overriding my car in the event of sudden braking. He was cleary too thick to consider the consequences, or too arrogant to think that it could happen to him. wc98 said:
Glenn63 said:
I drive hgv’s and some of these roadwork sections the lane widths are a joke, literally a couple inches either side, mirrors probably over the line. Only takes a gust of wind or camber change and you’ll be over the line into the next lane.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
For me anyone in a car regularly getting passed by HGV's should have their licence revoked as it shows a lack of basic competence. On most of the routes i use regularly the HGV's are the vehicles i worry about the least, white vans with the driver texting seem to be the worst. I love the A75 in the early hours of the morning when there is a ferry load of Irish HGV's on it, get to see some great rapid driving of them, always impressive to see a vehicle that size pick a line through the twisties at 70mph and the odd very interesting one that is even quicker. As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Edited by Glenn63 on Thursday 2nd May 14:05
There is one i have seen twice with what must be the most distinctive plate in the farming industry, not sure if a Scottish or Irish truck, that i had an indicated 85 mph when creeping past on an uphill section of the M74, god knows how rapid it would be on the flat or downhill. He does need to sort the headlights out though, just a wall of diffracted white light as the bulbs are definitely not suitable for the lenses they are behind.
A good few years back i also had a great drive down the A702 behind what i think was a sheep transporter. It was absolutely chucking it down and it never dropped below an indicated 60mph and only crossed the centre of the road a couple of times on bends where there was a good line of sight for several hundred yards. Probably the only time i have ever sat behind a lorry for that length of time and never felt the need to pass outside of the aforementioned A75, it was really enjoyable to watch, smooth driving very reminiscent of following Police riders or Drivers.
Pull the other one.
Muddle238 said:
Glenn63 said:
I drive hgv’s and some of these roadwork sections the lane widths are a joke, literally a couple inches either side, mirrors probably over the line. Only takes a gust of wind or camber change and you’ll be over the line into the next lane.
As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Doesn't matter whether your dash says they're doing 45, 50 or 120, that driver will be driving in accordance with the speedometer that is installed in their vehicle, not in accordance with whatever speed is displayed in your Scania. It's not the job of HGV drivers to usher along car drivers, who are driving at or around the speed limits in accordance to their own instrumentation. As for speed, some cars really are miles out speedo to actual speed. The new scanias tell you the vehicles speed in front, Iv been sat at 50, which is actually 50 on gps, approaching another car that my dash says is doing 45 then as I pass I can see their digital display reading 52. Then they complain that you’re driving to fast and reckless.
And then there’s the standard middle lane morons who sit side by side with someone in lane 1 doing a matching 40mph and everyone’s to scared of lane 3 to pass so ends up just mass traffic crawling in lane 1/2 and a clear empty motorway ahead of them.
Edited by Glenn63 on Thursday 2nd May 14:05
If the HGV driver feels that a car ahead could squeak out a couple more MPH according to the HGV speedo, they should not use the size of their wagon to intimidate the car driver into speeding up. They should simply maintain a safe following distance, then pull out and overtake when able.
On a daily basis I see HGV drivers right up the arses of cars in front, despite congestion meaning there is nowhere for that car to go. Driving a large lorry carries high levels of responsibility, however it's a shame that some HGV drivers seem to deem outright size and weight as a bullying weapon against other road users.
Only yesterday I had an HGV up my chuff on the motorway, 50 on the gantries, I'm doing an indicated 53, in L1, with another lorry infront. Why the HGV behind couldn't just overtake, I have no idea. Instead riding my bumper was apparently the answer, with absolutely f
k-all regard for what would happen to me or my rear seat passengers if his tailgating resulted in his cab overriding my car in the event of sudden braking. He was cleary too thick to consider the consequences, or too arrogant to think that it could happen to him. Randy Winkman said:
What are dangerous, the roadworks or the 50mph limits? If it's the latter, would the roadworks be safer with the normal 70mph limit?
It is more the distance they can go on for. Why do roadworks need to be 15 miles long as they were in the M4 example?. It is that which creates the danger. Slowing down for a mile or two isn't much of an issue.
QuattroDave said:
M27 has recently shrunk to 3 narrow lanes from 4 for resurfacing. Lane 2 is only 2.5m wide and even lane 1 is only 3.1m so yes passing hgv's in lane 2 is very much squeaky bum time, made worse by a surface so bad that lanes aren't easily distinguishable and the narrow lanes going on for 10 miles.
There is good news though, it's only going to take 2.5 years to complete......
Yes, you would have thought they would have done the sensible thing and did it while turning it into a dumb motorway. But oh no. I was on there yesterday, as a passenger, and even I was surprised how narrow the middle lane was. Or you could take the outside lane with a face height solid concrete barrier just a couple of inches away from you.There is good news though, it's only going to take 2.5 years to complete......
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