EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
FiF said:
@Muzzer
Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
I'm currently running a VW ID5. Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
The boot is massive, certainly equivalent to a medium-size estate car.
Motorway range - I'm currently getting a real, usable 280-290 miles per full charge.
And I do Bedfordshire to Heathrow T5 and back semi-regularly. No charging on route, no faff, no fuss.
ACCYSTAN said:
MG5 estate is horrible to drive, plus they devalue heavily in the first year like most EVs
Can’t use van for personal use, not insured.
I’ll stick with another petrol Berlingo MPV and hope that in 3 years time Citroen have improved the battery sufficiently to make the change more convenient
Buy a PHEV?Can’t use van for personal use, not insured.
I’ll stick with another petrol Berlingo MPV and hope that in 3 years time Citroen have improved the battery sufficiently to make the change more convenient
There's that 7-seat Dacia that was released last year?
Ankh87 said:
@Muzzer
It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
I agree whole-heartedly with your point about no home charging. If I had to 100% rely on the public charging network then there's no way I'd run an EV. It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
But this isn't about charging network, this is about range and viability of an EV. So the question still remains as to why do you need a car capable of two 200 mile round trips per day?
I question this on the basis that this was one of the reasons you discounted EVs so just want to strike it out if it's not necessary.
My maths are simple in running an EV. I save on tax and 'fuel' significantly throughout the year. These savings more than make up for the 1% of the time that I need to do something beyond the EV's capability or something that adds inconvenience.
Frankly, my EV costs me £70 a month to run so if I need to stop for 30 minutes on the annual holiday to Cornwall to top up the charge, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
But, as repeatedly stated on this thread, not everyone's circumstances are the same. If you have no home charging, are a travelling salesman in the car literally all day or need to tow something heavy then it's not your brand of Vodka. Which is fine.
My point is that EVs are not unviable, in the most part, due to range or holidays or other such myths. If it doesn't work for you, objectively, it's down to the above mentioned points and/or the sheer purchase cost if you can't access one through a company scheme or cheap lease deal of some sort.
FiF said:
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Is this a regular trip you actually do?Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Wouldn't a 10 minute top-up on the way home make this easy for any EV that can do 180 miles in the real world?
T_S_M said:
FiF said:
T_S_M said:
KIA EV6
Fail. Read the question, estate car.Same size boot as a Passat Estate or 5-Series Touring with the seats folded down. If you need bigger get a Transit.
Combined range of 250-300 miles.
The whole purpose of the original question was a poster throwing out a blank statement of something is no problem with a reasonable EV range, with no qualification. Which is all webbed up by implication as a response to the nobody drives 400 mile stints endless and tiresome argument.
So therefore a realistic situation to see what compromises have to be made to meet this.
Is a compromise a non flat loading floor?
A higher non flat loading lip?
Is it range and therefore a winter Friday night stop for a 20 min splash and dash at Beaconsfield, Oxford, or any other services on M40, M42, maybe even M5, which heading home on Friday night I need like a hole in the head.
What other compromises? Price maybe.
Or smaller space than ideal bearing in mind load space needs to be judged in dimensions not litres in my opinion.
Smaller points like too many so called estates have a hugely sloping tailgate.
What else has been suggested through various posts, oh yes parking services at Heathrow to get them to charge, LoL not going to happen ever.
Or maybe another compromise is a PHEV?
See what I'm getting at? As above Enyaq good shout generally, been looking at those, just seen ID5 suggested, not even considered that so far as it fails on quite a number of issues.
braddo said:
FiF said:
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Is this a regular trip you actually do?Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Wouldn't a 10 minute top-up on the way home make this easy for any EV that can do 180 miles in the real world?
otolith said:
FiF said:
What else has been suggested through various posts, oh yes parking services at Heathrow to get them to charge, LoL not going to happen ever.
How do you mean? The service is advertised on their website.FiF said:
T_S_M said:
FiF said:
T_S_M said:
KIA EV6
Fail. Read the question, estate car.Same size boot as a Passat Estate or 5-Series Touring with the seats folded down. If you need bigger get a Transit.
Combined range of 250-300 miles.
The whole purpose of the original question was a poster throwing out a blank statement of something is no problem with a reasonable EV range, with no qualification. Which is all webbed up by implication as a response to the nobody drives 400 mile stints endless and tiresome argument.
So therefore a realistic situation to see what compromises have to be made to meet this.
[b]Is a compromise a non flat loading floor?
A higher non flat loading lip?
Is it range and therefore a winter Friday night stop for a 20 min splash and dash at Beaconsfield, Oxford, or any other services on M40, M42, maybe even M5, which heading home on Friday night I need like a hole in the head.
What other compromises? Price maybe.
Or smaller space than ideal bearing in mind load space needs to be judged in dimensions not litres in my opinion.
Smaller points like too many so called estates have a hugely sloping tailgate.
What else has been suggested through various posts, oh yes parking services at Heathrow to get them to charge, LoL not going to happen ever.[/b]
Or maybe another compromise is a PHEV?
See what I'm getting at? As above Enyaq good shout generally, been looking at those, just seen ID5 suggested, not even considered that so far as it fails on quite a number of issues.
You asked for a car that would do the trip you specified without fuss or faff, but was an estate.
Suggestions were made.
If your requirements are more specific then fine - there isn't an EV to suit everyone's individual requirements yet. In terms of variety, we're predominantly limited to hatchbacks, saloons and small SUVs.
The question was about viability - can an EV perform the task of getting from Birmingham to Heathrow and back without pissing about. The answer is yes.
If you have further stipulations specific to you, as per previous posts, some EVs work for some people and not others - nobody has suggested that it's a blanket solution.
otolith said:
FiF said:
T_S_M said:
KIA EV6
Fail. Read the question, estate car.I'm flying from Luton in a few weeks and booked the "Park & Charge" and they'll charge it up while I'm away. It's £20 more than the 'regular' parking in the same car park. It'll cost me £24 in "fuel" to do 300 miles (£4 charge at home + £20 for extra parking), so it's on par or cheaper than an ICE car.
GT9 said:
monkfish1 said:
I suspect the outcome will be exactly as above, less new vehicles sold overall, thus reducing the fleet renewal rate. The exact opposite of the intent.
The intent is to increase the % of EVs in the pool.Putting more new ICE cars into the pool won't achieve it either...
Building pressure on manufacturers to offer the products people want and on buyers to compromise on perceived media-fuelled shortcomings (because that's what quite a bit of the resistance is, if we are being brutally honest) is only going to happen if the mandate targets are tough.
And yes there are also real shortcomings, some of which is nothing to do with the cars and all to do with charging them.
There's going to be elasticity between all of these factors, and hiatus events along the way.
Your post hints that we should be doing something different?
So overall, we will actually make the situation worse than it might otherwise have been. Like i said, a perverse outcome is likely to comes to pass.
Pressure on manufacturers wont fix anything. As you acknowledge yourself the barriers to mass adoption are many and varied, many of which the manufacturers cannot control. All that can happen is they sell less cars overall. Some may not survive that process, though given a large chunk of the world isnt doing what we are doing, most will probably put more focus elsewhere to prop up the bottom line.
My post hints at nothing with regard alternatives. Only that its unlikely that the mandates will result in the desired outcomes. Because, when do government mandates ever result in the desired outcomes?
Ive long since given up worrying about it. I cannot influence anything that happens in any way. The government will do whatever it wants, whether its rational or not.
Best i can do is sit back and chuckle. Its not like any of it isnt predicatable. Humans are, as a group, entirely predictable.
FiF said:
otolith said:
FiF said:
What else has been suggested through various posts, oh yes parking services at Heathrow to get them to charge, LoL not going to happen ever.
How do you mean? The service is advertised on their website.TheBinarySheep said:
Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.
Not much of a hunch is it! Its the law.Unless they pick up soon, then ICE sales will need to be slowed/stopped so the 22% target is met. Or very significant fines will need to be paid, which i cant imagine is going to occur on any significant basis.
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
@Muzzer
It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
You are suggesting not replacing your vehicle with one which works better 95% (in my case 98%) of the time and which is less good but still very useable for the remaining 5%It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
That’s not logical and suggests that you are making your decision based not on logic but prejudice, ie for some reason that you haven’t stated you just don’t like EVs).
Thats fine by the way just to not like them but be up front and say so rather than constructing ever more convoluted argents to justify your decision.
Objectively the only rational reasons not to switch to EV are:
1) You regularly (ie not just a few times per year) do long distances and feel the public recharging would be too burdensome/ costly
2) You don’t have any home charging
3) You can’t afford one.
(Even (2) is moot as there are a lot of people who do low mileages such that a once a week visit to a charger wouldn’t be a big deal even if it reduces the cost advantage a lot. There are plenty of people round here that I see doing a relatively cheap weekly charge on a public AC charger near their home as they don’t have their own charger. If a once a week charge is say 200 miles that’s 10,000 miles a year remember, way more than the national average, and slow charging to 100% is fine in this context.)
Pretty much everything else is just made up.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Thursday 2nd May 11:46
You need to explain what "better" is. Is this factual, or just an opinion?
I like how you say going to a public charger once a week is no big deal. Its a deal, and a step backwards. As per my earlier post, humans are entirely predicatable. They are not, willingingly, going to make their lives worse all else being equal. If it saved them £1000's a year, then you might see some movement.
Of course, you say this from the luxury of not having to do as you propose.
Muzzer79 said:
I'm going to have to flag this up again
Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.
At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.
If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.
I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.
malucnojes said:
Muzzer79 said:
I'm going to have to flag this up again
Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.
At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.
If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.
I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.
Get a season ticket at Fulham instead.
monkfish1 said:
TheBinarySheep said:
Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.
Not much of a hunch is it! Its the law.Unless they pick up soon, then ICE sales will need to be slowed/stopped so the 22% target is met. Or very significant fines will need to be paid, which i cant imagine is going to occur on any significant basis.
malucnojes said:
Muzzer79 said:
I'm going to have to flag this up again
Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.
At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.
If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.
I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.
survivalist said:
monkfish1 said:
TheBinarySheep said:
Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.
Not much of a hunch is it! Its the law.Unless they pick up soon, then ICE sales will need to be slowed/stopped so the 22% target is met. Or very significant fines will need to be paid, which i cant imagine is going to occur on any significant basis.
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