EVs... no one wants them!

[Mammasaid]

Maracus said:

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.


Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

Not sure why you would have to charge for 1-2 hours each time?

You wouldn't, if you were doing this trip, you'd plan to have a full(ish) battery the night before, and then total charging time for both there and back would be a little over an hour.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c24e739...

[Maracus]

Mammasaid said:

Maracus said:

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.


Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

Not sure why you would have to charge for 1-2 hours each time?

You wouldn't, if you were doing this trip, you'd plan to have a full(ish) battery the night before, and then total charging time for both there and back would be a little over an hour.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=c24e739...

Exactly. Take a LR Tesla Model 3 with a 280-300 mile range, you would need to stop for 10-15 minutes on the return leg to get home.

[otolith]

This is another of those journeys that policy makers would probably point out is 2.5 hours by train.

[Wills2]

TheBinarySheep said:

Wills2 said:

I'd say the fact that adoption share has stalled at that low percentage for the last 2+ years does anything but disagree, given the massive incentives to push people towards them, take away those and there wouldn't be a market worth talking about.

That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.

It's difficult to look an individual years and come to a conclusion from that. 2023 was an interesting year what with interest rates increasing etc.

In 2016 EV sales accounted for 0.6% of sales, in 2023 it was 16-18% depending on where you look. If in three years time we're still seeing EVs accounting for 16-18% of sales, then I'd agree with you, but it's too early to tell.

If you wanted to go finer, I could argue that EV sales in January were up 20% on last year, or that February sales were up 14% on last year, although March was 11% down.

It's like my Stocks and Shares ISA, some years its up, some years it's down, but over a longer period there's an upward trajectory.

Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.

When you have a share in 2022 of 16.6% then 16.5% in 2023 and 1 quarter into 2024 you're at 15.5% you have a trend, you're flat lining at 16%, I've never been a meeting where anyone would have the chutzpah to claim anything else looking at those numbers, it's clear that adoption rate has stalled.

It's a fact that EVs need incentives to sell and they are very generous especially compared to the punitive disincentives applied to ICE company cars, and then we have the middle class 40% discount that salary sacrifice offers.

But that market is only so big as they are finding out, they need to look for the next cohort of potential users and incentivise them, I'd go further and stop this incentive inequality and allow anyone to offset their tax liabilities against the purchase of a new EV, the current system is grossly unfair and self defeating.

[romft123]

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.

Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

I just dont get the point of the above post at all. Your telling us why you dont do something....jeez I could fill a page of all the things I dont do as well.

[740EVTORQUES]

romft123 said:

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.

Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

I just dont get the point of the above post at all. Your telling us why you dont do something....jeez I could fill a page of all the things I dont do as well.

6-8 hours London to Manchester and back again to watch a football match, you can’t have a beer while you’re there?

Or 41/2 hours on the train?

What does this doe to inform the discussion about EV’s?

[740EVTORQUES]

Let me give you a counter example.
I live in a quiet lane with neighbours and a wife and kids who don’t like being woken up at 2 in the morning if I have to go into work unexpectedly, or if I leave early (6.30)

So I can’t drive my 911, it would wake them up.
The EV is perfect.

I suspect this is a more real world example than your football watching marathon!

[plfrench]

740EVTORQUES said:

romft123 said:

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.

Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

I just dont get the point of the above post at all. Your telling us why you dont do something....jeez I could fill a page of all the things I dont do as well.

6-8 hours London to Manchester and back again to watch a football match, you can’t have a beer while you’re there?

Or 41/2 hours on the train?

What does this doe to inform the discussion about EV’s?

Reinforces the need for the ZEV mandate and 2035 ban on ICE as shows that left to their own devices, people would never change behaviour.

[malucnojes]

CivicDuties said:

There's a very easy answer to that one.

Get a season ticket at Fulham instead.

I'm waiting for the swimming pool to be finished at the cottage

[malucnojes]

740EVTORQUES said:

6-8 hours London to Manchester and back again to watch a football match, you can’t have a beer while you’re there?

Or 41/2 hours on the train?

What does this doe to inform the discussion about EV’s?

Have you tried to get a train recently between Manchester and London?

[Ankh87]

malucnojes said:

Have you tried to get a train recently between Manchester and London?

1. have you seen the prices of those train tickets?
2. Not always possible after a certain time to get the train home?
3. Train Strikes!


Not defending him but the trains aren't exactly reliable or a better alternative.

[JNW1]

plfrench said:

Reinforces the need for the ZEV mandate and 2035 ban on ICE as shows that left to their own devices, people would never change behaviour.

Or alternatively, it reinforces the need to improve the range EV's can cover, improve the infrastructure available to recharge them and reduce the time it takes to recharge once you're there. If you do those things and people still don't change then I agree at that stage a big stick might be appropriate...

[survivalist]

monkfish1 said:

survivalist said:

monkfish1 said:

TheBinarySheep said:

Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.

Not much of a hunch is it! Its the law.

Unless they pick up soon, then ICE sales will need to be slowed/stopped so the 22% target is met. Or very significant fines will need to be paid, which i cant imagine is going to occur on any significant basis.

They can ‘borrows’ from future years, so can potentially be well below the 22% and not incur the fines. Kicking the can down the road though.

At a cost, and with limitations.

Indeed, but likely a much lowe cost than refusing to sell ICE if the market demand is there. Especially if the competition are in a position to sell them.

Pretty sure they're lobbying the EU / Government for some relief on this, as it opens the door to cheap chinese competition.

More of an issue for Germany, France and Spain than the UK I suppose.

Stil, illustrates pretty clearly the the demand isn't there yet.

[survivalist]

Ankh87 said:

malucnojes said:

Have you tried to get a train recently between Manchester and London?

1. have you seen the prices of those train tickets?
2. Not always possible after a certain time to get the train home?
3. Train Strikes!


Not defending him but the trains aren't exactly reliable or a better alternative.

Indeed. I don't even take that train when work are picking up the bill, the experience makes sitting in traffic on the M6 seem like a pleasant alternative.

[Muzzer79]

malucnojes said:

Muzzer79 said:

I'm going to have to flag this up again

Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.

A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise

Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?

As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.

Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?

Whilst you're not wrong, let me give you a real world example:

I live in London but have a season ticket at Man City so will quite often do a 400mile round trip in a day. I park on the street at home so can't charge overnight and there's no charging points that I have access to at the Etihad stadium.

At the moment, I'll fill up just after leaving home (5mins), drive for 3-4hours, park at the Stadium, fill up as I leave Manchester (5mins) and then drive 3-4hours home.

If I was to have an electric car, I would need to drive to a charge point before leaving (1-2hours), drive for 3-4hours, park at the stadium, charge as I leave Manchester (1-2hours) and then drive 3-4hours home.

I've therefore added 3-4hours to my journey time and therefore until it becomes more convenient, I'll just stick with Petrol.

Why does a 400 mile round trip require 2-4 hours of charging?

Fully charge car before you leave

Go to football, optional charge on the way. Depends on the car but this could be 30 minutes or even less

Return from football, optional charge on the way back. Depends on the car but this could be 30 minutes or even less

Arrive home

Your 400 mile journey could just mean a 30 minute stop.

Besides (and this is the crux of the EV argument) if you don't want to do it - that's fine.

It doesn't however mean that EVs are obsolete, unviable or don't make sense for everyone.

I could make as many arguments for reduced costs and better driving experience as you could for more character, wider bodystyle choice and convenience of refueling.

If an EV works for you - great, buy one. If it doesn't work for you - unlucky, don't buy one.

I just don't see the point in going on a forum and arguing why an EV doesn't suit your individual needs.

As per previous posts, I don't go on Caterham forums arguing that Caterhams are useless for my lifestyle, so I'm not sure why it's the case with EVs?

[braddo]

FiF said:

?!

Because it is an extremely rare type of regular trip.

[survivalist]

braddo said:

FiF said:

?!

Because it is an extremely rare type of regular trip.

Driving to the airport for business travel is a pretty common journey. I used to do it a few times a month.

[nickfrog]

Muzzer79 said:

As per previous posts, I don't go on Caterham forums arguing that Caterhams are useless for my lifestyle, so I'm not sure why it's the case with EVs?

We will probably never have the answer to that but I can guarantee it won't stop.

[monkfish1]

survivalist said:

Ankh87 said:

malucnojes said:

Have you tried to get a train recently between Manchester and London?

1. have you seen the prices of those train tickets?
2. Not always possible after a certain time to get the train home?
3. Train Strikes!


Not defending him but the trains aren't exactly reliable or a better alternative.

Indeed. I don't even take that train when work are picking up the bill, the experience makes sitting in traffic on the M6 seem like a pleasant alternative.

Indeed! Id rather sit in numerous traffic jams, roadworks, and drive dodging potholes than spend time on an overcrowded late train full of people with no idea how to behave in public. That invariably goes from somewhere im not at, to somewhere i dont want to be. Assuming it runs at all of course.

[M4cruiser]

Muzzer79 said:

As per previous posts, I don't go on Caterham forums arguing that Caterhams are useless for my lifestyle, so I'm not sure why it's the case with EVs?

^ Because the government isn't forcing us all to drive Caterhams by 2035.