EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
M4cruiser said:
^ Because the government isn't forcing us all to drive Caterhams by 2035.
I am confident the gov is not forcing you to drive an EV by 2035. So what seems to be the problem?And if it was a problem, there might be more productive ways of exerting your influence, like speaking to your MP.
M4cruiser said:
Muzzer79 said:
As per previous posts, I don't go on Caterham forums arguing that Caterhams are useless for my lifestyle, so I'm not sure why it's the case with EVs?
^ Because the government isn't forcing us all to drive Caterhams by 2035.All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
Muzzer79 said:
Well, that's just not true is it.
All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
Please tell me how to make a petrol car emissions free.All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
M4cruiser said:
Muzzer79 said:
Well, that's just not true is it.
All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
Please tell me how to make a petrol car emissions free.All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
There are other forms of car propulsion than BEV and ICE you know
Muzzer79 said:
M4cruiser said:
Muzzer79 said:
Well, that's just not true is it.
All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
Please tell me how to make a petrol car emissions free.All new cars by 2035 must be emissions-free. You'll still be free to drive the ICE car you bought in 2030 beyond that if you want to.
But if that were the case, would you not have just a little bit of faith that Caterham would have produced a car suitable for your needs in 11 years time?
And you won't be forced to buy an EV. It must be emissions free, not electric.
There are other forms of car propulsion than BEV and ICE you know
nickfrog said:
Muzzer79 said:
As per previous posts, I don't go on Caterham forums arguing that Caterhams are useless for my lifestyle, so I'm not sure why it's the case with EVs?
We will probably never have the answer to that but I can guarantee it won't stop.I read this daily and find it very informative. At the moment I neither want nor dislike EVs. I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one, I can’t access a purchasing scheme to get one through work or through salary sacrifice or whatever, but in a way I wish they were a feasible option because I probably fit the best case use case very well.
The thing which strikes me though is the length of the arguments for them and all the assumptions about what people will and won’t tolerate to make the arguments add up in their favour. I find that rather uncompelling. It doesn’t seem to be a simple argument. There are a lot of conditions attached.
If EVs were more affordable I think the argument would be made much more easily for most people. The bottom line is, if they cost too much they make no practical sense at all.
griffter said:
I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one
The biggest fallacy with 'affording' one is that people think anyone spends £30k, £40k, £50k on a car - they don't. For the most part, it's the same principle across the board, where it's a monthly amount towards a lease/PCP/loan.The affordability often comes into the fact that it can almost pay for itself by the savings. For example, I've had a 50mpg+- diesel for ages that would cost £27 to do around 200 miles. I only do around 500 miles per month to work and back, but that's still around £70 per month, plus (currently) the VED, meaning £100 per month. An EV on a standard home tariff (not a special one) for me will work out at around 5p/mile, so that same mileage is at most £25 cost per month (but closer to £20 so far). This means I've magicked £75 out of the air to pay towards said vehicle. It also doesn't need servicing that I'd do myself but would still cost, so over a year all that can be absorbed too.
Unless someone's rolling around in the shed category, or can barely afford a car at all, or has an awful credit rating, the affordability one is actually not deserving of the rate in which it gets mentioned. They current cost less than ICE cars of the equivalent year on the 2nd hand market.
cj2013 said:
griffter said:
I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one
The biggest fallacy with 'affording' one is that people think anyone spends £30k, £40k, £50k on a car - they don't. For the most part, it's the same principle across the board, where it's a monthly amount towards a lease/PCP/loan.The affordability often comes into the fact that it can almost pay for itself by the savings. For example, I've had a 50mpg+- diesel for ages that would cost £27 to do around 200 miles. I only do around 500 miles per month to work and back, but that's still around £70 per month, plus (currently) the VED, meaning £100 per month. An EV on a standard home tariff (not a special one) for me will work out at around 5p/mile, so that same mileage is at most £25 cost per month (but closer to £20 so far). This means I've magicked £75 out of the air to pay towards said vehicle. It also doesn't need servicing that I'd do myself but would still cost, so over a year all that can be absorbed too.
Unless someone's rolling around in the shed category, or can barely afford a car at all, or has an awful credit rating, the affordability one is actually not deserving of the rate in which it gets mentioned. They current cost less than ICE cars of the equivalent year on the 2nd hand market.
There are other drivers too. I could easily afford a new EV on salary sacrifice, but I don’t like monthly contracts or owing money on things. When I need a new phone, I buy it from Argos and stick an £8/month sim in it. I’ve got 5 cars and a motorbike, but I own all of them and have done for years. Thing that annoys me is they are mostly petrol and V8s, which means they cost between £50-£60/month to tax.
cj2013 said:
The biggest fallacy with 'affording' one is that people think anyone spends £30k, £40k, £50k on a car - they don't. For the most part, it's the same principle across the board, where it's a monthly amount towards a lease/PCP/loan.
The affordability often comes into the fact that it can almost pay for itself by the savings. For example, I've had a 50mpg+- diesel for ages that would cost £27 to do around 200 miles. I only do around 500 miles per month to work and back, but that's still around £70 per month, plus (currently) the VED, meaning £100 per month. An EV on a standard home tariff (not a special one) for me will work out at around 5p/mile, so that same mileage is at most £25 cost per month (but closer to £20 so far). This means I've magicked £75 out of the air to pay towards said vehicle. It also doesn't need servicing that I'd do myself but would still cost, so over a year all that can be absorbed too.
Unless someone's rolling around in the shed category, or can barely afford a car at all, or has an awful credit rating, the affordability one is actually not deserving of the rate in which it gets mentioned. They current cost less than ICE cars of the equivalent year on the 2nd hand market.
Early in the year you had ORA funky cats that were £200 a month 0 deposit. They are great Value for someone who basically just needs a car. We can both charge for free from work so essentially we would have a brand new car for £2400 a year. It became a serious thought.The affordability often comes into the fact that it can almost pay for itself by the savings. For example, I've had a 50mpg+- diesel for ages that would cost £27 to do around 200 miles. I only do around 500 miles per month to work and back, but that's still around £70 per month, plus (currently) the VED, meaning £100 per month. An EV on a standard home tariff (not a special one) for me will work out at around 5p/mile, so that same mileage is at most £25 cost per month (but closer to £20 so far). This means I've magicked £75 out of the air to pay towards said vehicle. It also doesn't need servicing that I'd do myself but would still cost, so over a year all that can be absorbed too.
Unless someone's rolling around in the shed category, or can barely afford a car at all, or has an awful credit rating, the affordability one is actually not deserving of the rate in which it gets mentioned. They current cost less than ICE cars of the equivalent year on the 2nd hand market.
We do 7000 miles a year in commute costs between us which is about £1000 a year on fuel for two people. Add M.O.T, tax and servicing and you are around £1800. It would still cost me £600 a year more to run the EV even with free charging and that is a proper poverty spec thing. The ORA was also coming back £300 more expensive on insurance as well. Yes i know my car is an old banger but it is reliable, we have had it for 15 years, everything still works on it and is a perfect commutable hack keeping mileage off our nicer cars.
I understand I am entirely the wrong demographic here considering I can rip an engine out and dismantle it with my eyes closed so keeping an older car running is very easy for me.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 3rd May 09:44
KingGary said:
which means eventually EVs will cost the same or more as the equivalent ICE.
Road pricing will certainly change the economics, but I suspect electricity will still be cheaper than petrol. But it wouldn't surprise me if Smart Meters become compulsory and there'll be a way to charge more for EV charging.Meanwhile, whilst people wait to see what happens, I've saved around £21k in fuel and servicing in the time I've had my EV (over the thirsty car it replaced). It wasn't the reason I bought it, nor was it to save Greta's, but it's a handy sum all the same.
griffter said:
Because this is a thread in a car buying forum on a motoring website called “EVs…nobody wants them”.
I read this daily and find it very informative. At the moment I neither want nor dislike EVs. I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one, I can’t access a purchasing scheme to get one through work or through salary sacrifice or whatever, but in a way I wish they were a feasible option because I probably fit the best case use case very well.
The thing which strikes me though is the length of the arguments for them and all the assumptions about what people will and won’t tolerate to make the arguments add up in their favour. I find that rather uncompelling. It doesn’t seem to be a simple argument. There are a lot of conditions attached.
If EVs were more affordable I think the argument would be made much more easily for most people. The bottom line is, if they cost too much they make no practical sense at all.
oh come on, you can't come in here saying sensible stuff like that!I read this daily and find it very informative. At the moment I neither want nor dislike EVs. I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one, I can’t access a purchasing scheme to get one through work or through salary sacrifice or whatever, but in a way I wish they were a feasible option because I probably fit the best case use case very well.
The thing which strikes me though is the length of the arguments for them and all the assumptions about what people will and won’t tolerate to make the arguments add up in their favour. I find that rather uncompelling. It doesn’t seem to be a simple argument. There are a lot of conditions attached.
If EVs were more affordable I think the argument would be made much more easily for most people. The bottom line is, if they cost too much they make no practical sense at all.
KingGary said:
cj2013 said:
griffter said:
I’m intrigued by them, but I can’t afford to buy one
The biggest fallacy with 'affording' one is that people think anyone spends £30k, £40k, £50k on a car - they don't. For the most part, it's the same principle across the board, where it's a monthly amount towards a lease/PCP/loan.The affordability often comes into the fact that it can almost pay for itself by the savings. For example, I've had a 50mpg+- diesel for ages that would cost £27 to do around 200 miles. I only do around 500 miles per month to work and back, but that's still around £70 per month, plus (currently) the VED, meaning £100 per month. An EV on a standard home tariff (not a special one) for me will work out at around 5p/mile, so that same mileage is at most £25 cost per month (but closer to £20 so far). This means I've magicked £75 out of the air to pay towards said vehicle. It also doesn't need servicing that I'd do myself but would still cost, so over a year all that can be absorbed too.
Unless someone's rolling around in the shed category, or can barely afford a car at all, or has an awful credit rating, the affordability one is actually not deserving of the rate in which it gets mentioned. They current cost less than ICE cars of the equivalent year on the 2nd hand market.
There are other drivers too. I could easily afford a new EV on salary sacrifice, but I don’t like monthly contracts or owing money on things. When I need a new phone, I buy it from Argos and stick an £8/month sim in it. I’ve got 5 cars and a motorbike, but I own all of them and have done for years. Thing that annoys me is they are mostly petrol and V8s, which means they cost between £50-£60/month to tax.
The argument is then altered by consideration of other factors, eg deposit contributions, interest rates, and then technical issues like a developing technology. Accepted that a lease or PCP style deal makes it very much easier to off load a lemon or something where the tech has been left behind, or simply a vehicle that ultimately was disappointing and risk of depreciation etc is transferred to the finance company. Though in many cases you're shelling out thousands in interest for that risk transfer.
Ref the false argument presented that "The biggest fallacy with 'affording' one is that people think anyone spends £30k, £40k, £50k on a car - they don't." Some people do. Equally some people do use lease / PCP where they could easily drop £50k, £60k, whatever upwards on a purchase. It's a complicated decision that varies for everyone individually.
FiF said:
braddo said:
FiF said:
?!
Because it is an extremely rare type of regular trip.A top-up charge of 10-15 mins on the way home would make it viable for many EVs today. Not that you need to buy an EV today. In 5-10 years' time there will be loads of choice of EVs that can do 240 miles comfortably. It simply isn't a big deal.
NDA said:
Road pricing will certainly change the economics, but I suspect electricity will still be cheaper than petrol. But it wouldn't surprise me if Smart Meters become compulsory and there'll be a way to charge more for EV charging.
Meanwhile, whilst people wait to see what happens, I've saved around £21k in fuel and servicing in the time I've had my EV (over the thirsty car it replaced). It wasn't the reason I bought it, nor was it to save Greta's, but it's a handy sum all the same.
I reckon that as taxes increase on EV's, it'll increase even more on ICE.Meanwhile, whilst people wait to see what happens, I've saved around £21k in fuel and servicing in the time I've had my EV (over the thirsty car it replaced). It wasn't the reason I bought it, nor was it to save Greta's, but it's a handy sum all the same.
So if EV's in the future are taxed the same as ICE vehicles today, god knows what the tax on ICE will be!
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