The decline of manual values
Discussion
Bought the wife an auto (as the car she wanted doesn't come in any other form), it has the 8 speed aisin box and its the first time I have really driven any sort of distance with an auto
It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
Gary C said:
Bought the wife an auto (as the car she wanted doesn't come in any other form), it has the 8 speed aisin box and its the first time I have really driven any sort of distance with an auto
It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
I've never driven an auto box like this at all, so please do accept that it would be unwise to form a view based on this geatbox (and doesn't explain anything about modern driving imo). It explains a lot of modern driving. Its fine in its way, shifts smoothly most of the time.
But I can do better with a manual, it doesn't change down promptly enough when braking such that there is a delay as it gets into the right gear when accelerating again, it always seeks the lowest gear when cruising but then always thrashes the nuts when using full throttle. Manual mode is the most frustrating, even if I just want to use full throttle at say mid rev's, it overrides me and changes down 2-3 gears.
The worst though, is when I get back in my manual and forget to press the clutch when coming to a stop
Thing is, a manual always does what I want when I want it how I want it. The auto needs me to change my driving style and I don't want too.
It doesn't even make much sense in city traffic where an EV would be a better choice.
What gearbox did you say it was?
I've driven some of the new BMW/Merc autos in hire cars. Godsend in heavy traffic and yes, they are smooth, reasonably quick and fuel efficient.
But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
BandOfBrothers said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
Why can't they make a car that can be switched between auto and proper manual? If they can make robotised manuals for stuff like the M3 CSL SMG box, why can't that be switched between automated and manual, for example? Is there some kind of complexity I'm just not thinking of that would make this difficult/impossible?
motorhole said:
I've driven some of the new BMW/Merc autos in hire cars. Godsend in heavy traffic and yes, they are smooth, reasonably quick and fuel efficient.
But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
You’ve completely contradicted yourself there. As you admit, you can of course select the gear that you want ahead of a corner, or for any other reason you choose.But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
A well setup manual gearbox and clutch is fantastic in a simple, relatively low powered, light car when driving just for the joy of it. For the other 99.9% of driving you'd have to be a masochist to choose it if given the choice IMHO.
My son and daughter are currently learning to drive. My son is doing the manual license as loves cars and wants the option of driving anything in the future. He's already eying up Cayman's/GT86's etc. My daughter is doing the auto license as much prefers the ease of use and will likely be getting an EV like Zoe/i3/Fiat 500E.
I will add that they are both in their 20's and have put it off for a few years due to the high cost of both cars and insurance which neither felt was justified for what would be limited use up until now.
My son and daughter are currently learning to drive. My son is doing the manual license as loves cars and wants the option of driving anything in the future. He's already eying up Cayman's/GT86's etc. My daughter is doing the auto license as much prefers the ease of use and will likely be getting an EV like Zoe/i3/Fiat 500E.
I will add that they are both in their 20's and have put it off for a few years due to the high cost of both cars and insurance which neither felt was justified for what would be limited use up until now.
Ken_Code said:
You’ve completely contradicted yourself there. As you admit, you can of course select the gear that you want ahead of a corner, or for any other reason you choose.
Not really, just two seperate points. 1) A driver can make a decision about a given gear ahead of time. No gearbox can do this.
2) An auto in manual mode gives control back to the driver. But with the detriment of having to go through gears without the option of block changing. And potentially, if you want the benefit of auto in town, having to flip between auto and manual modes to suit.
Also worth noting that an EV resolves this particular matter in all instances by providing instant torque on demand all the time without the need to change gear.
motorhole said:
Not really, just two seperate points.
1) A driver can make a decision about a given gear ahead of time. No gearbox can do this.
2) An auto in manual mode gives control back to the driver. But with the detriment of having to go through gears without the option of block changing. And potentially, if you want the benefit of auto in town, having to flip between auto and manual modes to suit.
Also worth noting that an EV resolves this particular matter in all instances by providing instant torque on demand all the time without the need to change gear.
But you said that an automatic gearbox doesn’t allow it, when it does.1) A driver can make a decision about a given gear ahead of time. No gearbox can do this.
2) An auto in manual mode gives control back to the driver. But with the detriment of having to go through gears without the option of block changing. And potentially, if you want the benefit of auto in town, having to flip between auto and manual modes to suit.
Also worth noting that an EV resolves this particular matter in all instances by providing instant torque on demand all the time without the need to change gear.
And I don’t have to flip between modes. If I use the paddles it’s in manual mode, if I don’t it isn’t.
What are you saying is the benefit to being able to go from 5th to 3rd without engaging fourth? It’s still quicker to do via fourth in an automatic than in a manual.
motorhole said:
I've driven some of the new BMW/Merc autos in hire cars. Godsend in heavy traffic and yes, they are smooth, reasonably quick and fuel efficient.
But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
Wrong. My BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav to downshift on the approach to roundabouts, and similar situations. The gear for exit is thus selected at entry, and allows you to balance the car through the roundabout and out - and X-drive makes wet roundabouts a doddle.But one thing no auto gearbox can do is select a gear ahead of time. E.g. for me, it's quite common for me to approach a hazard such as a roundabout, read the traffic flow then arrive at the roundabout in the gear I need to provide the requisite amount of torque on demand. With a manual you can be proactive in this manner, whereas an auto is always reactive, no matter how quick it is.
Yes, you can drive like this with an auto in manual mode, paddles or otherwise. But you need to go through the gears to arrive at the one you need, you can't block shift from 5th down to 3rd for example.
Minor gripe. But it's always the first thing I notice when driving an auto and after a while it starts to 'grind my gears'
As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
911Spanker said:
BandOfBrothers said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
Pica-Pica said:
Wrong. My BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav to downshift on the approach to roundabouts, and similar situations. The gear for exit is thus selected at entry, and allows you to balance the car through the roundabout and out - and X-drive makes wet roundabouts a doddle.
As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
I stand corrected. This is really smart and it does put my argument to bed in that particular example!As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
Pica-Pica said:
Wrong. My BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav to downshift on the approach to roundabouts, and similar situations. The gear for exit is thus selected at entry, and allows you to balance the car through the roundabout and out - and X-drive makes wet roundabouts a doddle.
As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
how does it really work in practice, esp on a spirited drive?As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
it potentially addresses a big issue of old style slush boxes. when I googled "BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav review", there weren't too many reviews. maybe it's so subtle many don't even realise it's working.
this continued debate is tiresome. I want both and it's a matter of usage and preference.
Ken_Code said:
MC Bodge said:
We are not worthy
It’s a valid point though. Losing a couple of BNP matters far less on more powerful engines and the slower shift of manuals is more of a hindrance.As I wrote above, it’s no surprise that the least powerful of my cars is the only one that I want to be a manual.
More powerful/faster cars will benefit from the fast shifting modern auto boxes and will allow you more time to concentrate on steering and braking - and are generally more efficient - in speed of change, on fuel/emissions and effort.
On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
There is then the personal factor - whether you prefer the different type/level of interaction that you get with a manual gearbox. It is not better or worse, just a preference. And often will differ dependent on the type/size/age of car at hand.
There is no 'right' answer.
Going back to the original topic - the effect on values of manual cars - it is an interesting question. Lower numbers of manual cars in the market would normally result in increased values down the line, but with the exception of high-value/premium models I wouldn't be surprised to see a decline in values with the aging demographic of people who grew up with manual gearboxes, the undoubted capability of modern 'auto' gearboxes and so many new drivers moving to auto-only licenses. I could see cars like the Ferrari 360/996 Turbo being exactly the kind of cars that have enhanced values as a manual though. However much sweat is expended!
CABC said:
Pica-Pica said:
Wrong. My BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav to downshift on the approach to roundabouts, and similar situations. The gear for exit is thus selected at entry, and allows you to balance the car through the roundabout and out - and X-drive makes wet roundabouts a doddle.
As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
how does it really work in practice, esp on a spirited drive?As for block shifting, using the left push on the auto lever (that is going into sport mode), drops down two gears. The ZF8 steptronic really is superior to a manual - unless you enjoy pumping your left leg up and down.
it potentially addresses a big issue of old style slush boxes. when I googled "BMW F30 with ZF8 uses GPS/Sat Nav review", there weren't too many reviews. maybe it's so subtle many don't even realise it's working.
this continued debate is tiresome. I want both and it's a matter of usage and preference.
Wacky Racer said:
Why have a dog and bark yourself?
Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
Why should the car have all the fun? I want to drive it myself!Auto's all the way.
(I never thought I would ever say that)
As someone who was "doing the gears" for mum in her Capri when I was 8 years old, and who used to be called to my parents' dinner parties to entertain guests with my formula one impressions (including gear changes and doppler effect), cars with manual gearboxes are an important part of my life. In fact the sound of a nice engine and well executed gear changes are one of life's true pleasures for me. I shall endeavour to have one or more manual petrol cars at my disposal for as long as I am able. Since I'm 49, and not in the best of health, I suspect I'll be able to avoid EV ownership altogether. I don't care if values drop, but I remember when hunting for my Boxster a few years ago, finding one with with a manual gearbox and LSD without paying GTS tax was tricky. I thing for cars special enough to be better as a manual (i.e. not white goods conveyance) it won't make any difference to their value. It might even increase values as supply is constrained.
I do also own a wafty old-school 4-speed auto, but 3 of my four cars are manuals.
My parents would have been 100 and 99 this August, if they had lived that long.
They always had manual cars until they hit their 60s, and autos in average cars got better.
The last 20 years of their lives were autos only, they simply preferred them.
I am now 70, and got my first auto 29 years ago, a lexus LS400. I wanted a Lexus and they didnt come in manual.
Since then my only manuals have been recent second cars, a cheap Nissan X Trail for towing and my TVR because track days.
On this straw pole I am deducing that the older generation mostly discover automatics at some point in mid-life, even if they started on manuals, and don't change back.
If younger drivers are mostly now learning on EVs and autos, then the manual gearbox will become pretty rare reasonably soon in mainstream daily cars.
They always had manual cars until they hit their 60s, and autos in average cars got better.
The last 20 years of their lives were autos only, they simply preferred them.
I am now 70, and got my first auto 29 years ago, a lexus LS400. I wanted a Lexus and they didnt come in manual.
Since then my only manuals have been recent second cars, a cheap Nissan X Trail for towing and my TVR because track days.
On this straw pole I am deducing that the older generation mostly discover automatics at some point in mid-life, even if they started on manuals, and don't change back.
If younger drivers are mostly now learning on EVs and autos, then the manual gearbox will become pretty rare reasonably soon in mainstream daily cars.
Om said:
More powerful/faster cars will benefit from the fast shifting modern auto boxes and will allow you more time to concentrate on steering and braking - and are generally more efficient - in speed of change, on fuel/emissions and effort.
On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
That's been my experience over the years too.... With smaller cars you need to wring the performance out and that suits a manual - more powerful engines don't really need a manual. I test drove a big V8 with a manual before spec'ing a paddle shift when I came to order - the manual was all but useless, 1st was unusable (for example).On a lower powered car - especially an older one - an autobox will sap a significant % of the available power and have lower performance, poorer efficiency - and increased complexity.
There are some cars, particularly vintage ones where the auto boxes were horrible, where a manual box is more highly prized. I'd rather have paddles on a modern sports car.
911Spanker said:
BandOfBrothers said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
BandOfBrothers said:
Tell me you haven't driven a powerful manual without telling you haven't driven a powerful manual...
Tell me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car without telling me you haven't driven the manual and auto versions of the same powerful car.I wouldn't want to be in stop start traffic for an hour in either of them. No sweat in their automatic versions. I also owned a manual E90 M3 for a while.
I've never found a manual a chore at all. Quite the opposite.
But then the clutch could handle repeated 400 bhp full launches with zero wheel spin.
The standard clutch was much more agreeable to use, but would be toast after 3 or 4 launches at even 350 bhp.
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