Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[Dibble]

irc said:

9% in line with other public sector workers in fact more than most seems enough.

I’ve had nowhere near a 9% increase. In fact, in real terms, my pay’s taken a 20% or so reduction over the last 10(ish) years

There are other restrictions as well for me (can’t strike, can’t join a Union, can’t be a member of a political party and a few others), which I was aware of and accepted when I joined, but at the time, those restrictions were somewhat compensated for by the salary (then) and the pension (then). My “new” pension means I have to pay more, for longer, to get less back, later (I currently pay in over 14.5% of my gross salary).

[loafer123]

Dibble said:

My “new” pension means I have to pay more, for longer, to get less back, later (I currently pay in over 14.5% of my gross salary).

In a low yield environment, everyone has to save more to get the same income on retirement.

It’s probably no comfort, but at least you know it isn’t just you guys.

[Murph7355]

s1962a said:

Are the same people that don't want to put their hands in their (tax) pockets to pay our doctors more, the same ones that will be shouting and crying when they or their loved ones can't get medical attention due to a shortage?

Or maybe we prefer our home grown doctors going to other countries to earn more money, and we import ours from 3rd world countries and drain them of their medical resources?

Personally I think we should increase our taxes and pay doctors enough that they dont see going abroad as a much better option.

I guess that depends on who it is thinks they pay enough in already.

I suspect it will be people from all across the spectrum...everyone thinks everyone else should pay more, so they can have the services they deserve.

Do other countries "poaching" our talent feel bad about draining us of medical resources? Seems like it might be a global merry-go-round.

How much is "enough" to stop UK born and trained junior doctors going abroad? What do they get paid elsewhere, and where? And in order to do this, will it be necessary to pay all public sector workers the same as that country, along with taxing people the same way.....?

[FiF]

Laurenson the co-chairman of the BMA jnr doctors is being criticised as it seems during this strike he has buggered off on holiday. Really interested in negotiating then.

[irc]

Stop our doctors going abroad? Well they could start by making say 8 years work for the NHS a requirement before moving abroad. The alternative being to pay back the cost of training.

I don't think £59k 5 years after graduating is bad. In fact it is far higher than average. The best performing university in the country as measured by average salary after 5 years is Oxford. £47k.

https://thetab.com/uk/2022/06/23/these-are-the-rus...

[JagLover]

I voted "another percentage", because IMO it should be variable by grade.

Doctors actually have a decent starting salary compared to other professions and in the first two years they are effectively doing on the job training as far as I am aware.

Later on in their careers they also earn a very decent amount. The issue seems to be a few years in where they have some experience, and are valuable to other countries, but pay hasn't caught up to their market value. I could see a pay hike of, say, £10K being justified there.

[JagLover]

biggles330d said:

or, they shouldn't consider being doctors at all and consider a career in land management...

These doctors will not have gone into the industry being unaware of the pay. They might not have been as aware of the workload, but I'm always a bit dubious about that argument. If you are massively overworked to the point of dropping, frankly any amount of additional money isn't going to fix that problem. It's the wrong answer to the wrong question. At that point it's about resources in the sector, not pay. Still a Government problem though.

As far as I am aware the workload has got better over time. For GPs for example out of hours work used to be common on top of a full time job, whereas now many are on a three day working week and out of hours work has mostly gone. Junior doctors used to work 90 hour weeks on average as recently as 1990 (though much of that was likely spent on call).

I suspect this is more to do with changing views on whether it is a job or vocation and the decline of the old "job for life" mentality where people were willing to accept years of being paid below their market value if the pay they think they warranted came with seniority.

[JagLover]

skwdenyer said:

Do you have any idea what starting salaries in many of the professions are these days?

A fair bit lower than £29K. For a graduate starting an accountancy training contract it will likely be around £23K (higher in London, lower elsewhere).

[julian64]

Dibble said:

I’ve had nowhere near a 9% increase. In fact, in real terms, my pay’s taken a 20% or so reduction over the last 10(ish) years

There are other restrictions as well for me (can’t strike, can’t join a Union, can’t be a member of a political party and a few others), which I was aware of and accepted when I joined, but at the time, those restrictions were somewhat compensated for by the salary (then) and the pension (then). My “new” pension means I have to pay more, for longer, to get less back, later (I currently pay in over 14.5% of my gross salary).

I was told half way through my pension career that I would now start to pay both employers and employees contributions to my pension. It was a little cost cutting exercise that wasn't considered a pay cut. So paying nearly 30% of my gross.

Had it happened in any other industry than the NHS government controlled one then there would have been instant strikes. Early in my career I was told the money isn't that good, but the pensions good, so I kept on. Then the lifetime allowance dropped, I started paying both employees and employers contributions and a hefty whack on the accrual of the pot. All stealth taxes which mean that new junior doctors can get a little upset now being told your pay isn't that good, but the pension will make up for it.

My generation relied on the government not changing things to say 'bit st now, but we'll be okay in the end'. But when you look at the changes the government made I wouldn't blame anyone for saying we don't trust the government promises into the future, and therefore we want appropriate pay for the job NOW.

[fat80b]

irc said:

I don't think £59k 5 years after graduating is bad. In fact it is far higher than average. The best performing university in the country as measured by average salary after 5 years is Oxford. £47k.

This is the way to look at it imho - a Doctor does extremely well over a full career even more so when you consider that we pay for their training.

Arguing over the starting pay level is highly misleading but the junior BMA mouthpieces seem to be hell bent on picking a fight.


That said, I think we saw all of this coming when the pensioners were given their 10.5% increase to set the bar. It was always going to end badly when the non-working got a far bigger payrise than the working folk.....

[kambites]

At the risk of stating the obvious, they need to be paid enough for the NHS to recruit (and retain) enough doctors. Given that they NHS has around 9000 unfilled medical roles and 45000 unfilled nursing rules there is clearly something wrong very at present. Whether a huge pay rise is the right solution is a question for someone who knows a lot more about the topic than me!

[Zetec-S]

5-10% seems fair.

Although they can have the full 35% if they and their family agree that unless it's a work situation they never mention the fact that they're a doctor.

[Evil.soup]

I do find it rather strange that these fresh faced doctors didn't take a look at the pay structure before starting on their pathway to becoming a doctor.

Pay across the board has been eroded significantly over the past 10 years. I carried out an adjusted calculation on my own income based on my wage 15 years ago and even after training and promotions over the past 15 years, the value of my pay hasn't risen with any significance.

We are all in the same boat but a doctor a few years in is rather well paid.

I can't help but feel a big part of this is simply greed. If they want a job earning more money, become a self employed master craftsperson, pick the right career in the first place.

[JagLover]

kambites said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, they need to be paid enough for the NHS to recruit (and retain) enough doctors. Given that they NHS has around 9000 unfilled medical roles and 45000 unfilled nursing rules there is clearly something wrong very at present. Whether a huge pay rise is the right solution is a question for someone who knows a lot more about the topic than me!

Recruitment is artificially constrained by the number of university places available. The number of places has been increased to 7,500 a year (from 6,000) but is still below the level needed and there are calls to double it from the increased level.


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/feb/23/dr...

[kambites]

JagLover said:

kambites said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, they need to be paid enough for the NHS to recruit (and retain) enough doctors. Given that they NHS has around 9000 unfilled medical roles and 45000 unfilled nursing rules there is clearly something wrong very at present. Whether a huge pay rise is the right solution is a question for someone who knows a lot more about the topic than me!

Recruitment is artificially constrained by the number of university places available.

They don't have to be recruited from British graduates. The way the industry is at the moment I don't think they'd manage to fill enough medical spots in British universities even if enough places were available. I know I wouldn't be willing to do 7 years at university and build up six figure debts to then put up with the rubbish NHS doctors have to deal with for the salaries they earn!

I'd be interested to know what the average starting salary for people with doctorates is, and how that compares to the average starting salary for newly graduated doctors in the NHS.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 12th April 09:35

[greggy50]

I would say 9% in line with similar public sector packages offered would be more than reasonable.

I would support more if the pension changed, currently the NHS contribute 21% whereas in the private sector that would be like 5-6%. As such its not really fair just comparing salaries imo.

[pork911]

kambites said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, they need to be paid enough for the NHS to recruit (and retain) enough doctors. Given that they NHS has around 9000 unfilled medical roles and 45000 unfilled nursing rules there is clearly something wrong very at present. Whether a huge pay rise is the right solution is a question for someone who knows a lot more about the topic than me!

How is the number of unfilled roles quantified?

[Killboy]

JagLover said:

skwdenyer said:

Do you have any idea what starting salaries in many of the professions are these days?

A fair bit lower than £29K. For a graduate starting an accountancy training contract it will likely be around £23K (higher in London, lower elsewhere).

I dont think I'd get a CV in my inbox for 29k.

[Limpet]

blueg33 said:

irc said:

"
By the fifth year of training a doctor’s standard base salary has increased to over £51,000. This places junior doctors amongst the top 15 per cent of earners in the UK within five years of graduation. Further, these salary numbers ignore that when doctors work antisocial hours (such as evenings, nights and weekends) they get paid significantly more. "


https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/im-a-junior-do...

9% in line with other public sector workers in fact more than most seems enough.

Edited by irc on Tuesday 11th April 09:25

Tricky. I pay a 27 year old land manager £75k plus bonus that adds up to another £30k as that is the going rate in my industry. To get to that salary a land manager has done 4 years at uni and 3 years experience.

A doctor has to study longer and will earn half of the amount my land managers earn.

I think young doctors probably need paying more, but the rate of increase should tail off.

Remuneration is a tricky one, as you say.

You can avoid uni altogether, go into sales and earn £150k a year by the age of 30 if you're good, and you get the right breaks. It's not for me at all, but I know people retired (comfortably) at 50 with a decent property portfolio who've contributed nothing more significant to society than selling photocopiers and associated services and software. In terms of value to society, there is no comparison with a doctor, or indeed anyone in the medical profession.

Our society is very odd.

[parabolica]

kambites said:

JagLover said:

kambites said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, they need to be paid enough for the NHS to recruit (and retain) enough doctors. Given that they NHS has around 9000 unfilled medical roles and 45000 unfilled nursing rules there is clearly something wrong very at present. Whether a huge pay rise is the right solution is a question for someone who knows a lot more about the topic than me!

Recruitment is artificially constrained by the number of university places available.

They don't have to be recruited from British graduates. The way the industry is at the moment I don't think they'd manage to fill enough medical spots in British universities even if enough places were available. I know I wouldn't be willing to do 7 years at university and build up six figure debts to then put up with the rubbish NHS doctors have to deal with for the salaries they earn!

I'd be interested to know what the average starting salary for people with doctorates is, and how that compares to the average starting salary for newly graduated doctors in the NHS.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 12th April 09:35

You have to also bear in mind a lot of other countries aggressively hire for doctors and nurses and offer much better pay and conditions; whether it is elsewhere in Europe, Asia or Australia. An ex-UK junior doctor who moved to Sydney recently did a youtube video breaking down her UK vs Australia pay and conditions and in the end she was making around 50% more net for working 50-60 hours a week there, instead of 80 hours in the UK, and her hospital paid for the visa, relocation etc.