World's largest offshore windfarm starts generating
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Or we just chill and wait 10 years for the cause of the problem to pass away. Besides, offshore wind farms are a testament to what can be achieved when there aren't people to endlessly complain about those getting on with delivering the future needs.
Quite, NIMBY fish don't have much influence.DonkeyApple said:
The new energy nations are going to be the new dominant nations that will seize energy demanding industries away from their legacy geologies and we do need to ensure that we are focussed on that bonanza and don't let the miserable population of perma whingers drag everyone else down.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2024/03/18/green-hydrogen-will-become-the-21st-century-version-of-oil/?sh=57237c9e6365Green Hydrogen Will Become The 21st Century Version Of Oil
PushedDover said:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2024/0...
Green Hydrogen Will Become The 21st Century Version Of Oil
These GH articles are always interesting in what they ignore. They're very centralised around the concept of resource poor developed nations being able to act as a colonial power. And then they're focussed around the legacy industries of these developed nations somehow just converting to a new energy source which isn't local. Green Hydrogen Will Become The 21st Century Version Of Oil
So what you end up with is talk about how GH will be used to decarbonise certain industries that aren't currently powered by hydrogen. Ie they completely ignore that there can be no excess GH for those industries until the industries which already use hydrogen have been decarbonised. So they're decades out from the start.
Then they always talk about how nations such as Germany will go to developing nations that have the geographical means to produce this GH in excess form and somehow then ship it all the way round the planet to get it to the German factory that requires it. Very obviously not what is going to happen. The dirty factory in Eastern Europe that is located where it is due to cheap local coal will not be spending €bns to convert to GH and then spend €bns importing energy from the other side of the plant. No one is going to be doing that as it is uncompetitive. The nation that has the supply of GH will instead set up their own new factory employing their own people and making use of their own cheap new energy source. That nation will then sell its excess carbon credit supply to entities such as the EU who without these credits can't ever claim net zero.
It's an immensely arrogant perspective of those within these resource poor developed nations to think they will be solving their problems via oit modes colonial pillage and plunder of inferior nations' resources. And in reality we are going to see them being delivered very rude awakenings from which we in the U.K. are going to be among the most isolated developed nation from the true woes of net zero.
DonkeyApple said:
So what you end up with is talk about how GH will be used to decarbonise certain industries that aren't currently powered by hydrogen. Ie they completely ignore that there can be no excess GH for those industries until the industries which already use hydrogen have been decarbonised. So they're decades out from the start.
Agreed. The only country with the economic power to convert to a hydrogen powered economy will possibly be Japan. Leaning heavily on Australia and China.Everyone else still has to address fertiliser, steel, chemical industry etc etc
Evanivitch said:
Agreed. The only country with the economic power to convert to a hydrogen powered economy will possibly be Japan. Leaning heavily on Australia and China.
Everyone else still has to address fertiliser, steel, chemical industry etc etc
Aus in one of the three geographical locations where excess wind energy production of a commercially constant nature is possible and where at the point of generation the population demand is heavily exceeded. On top of that they have the potential for boosting with daylight solar. They're also iron ore rich. They account for nearly 60% of the global iron ore export market. They export it because their energy costs to process it are globally uncompetitive. With the nations who currently buy the ore to process because they have vast and cheap fossil fuel supplies having to stop using that coal and gas and facing rising carbon taxation, while the nation that produces the iron ore has the potential to be generating vast carbon free excess energy you can see that the economics don't favour the dirty factory overseas de-carbonising but just shutting down completely and a new factory opening in Aus to use the new competitive advantage. Everyone else still has to address fertiliser, steel, chemical industry etc etc
The Germans are currently in a desperate race to colonise and asset strip Chile so that it can ship energy across the Atlantic to try and keep their dirty factories operational. Meanwhile, the US has begun giving USD to the right people in South America so that nations like Chile will decide to not send their new energy all the way to Germany's factories but instead use US debt to build their own factories and wipe out the inefficient and weak German competitors.
Such is the perpetual arrogance of the German culture and its endless obsession with wunderwaffe that every single time it fails to learn that it can't just walk into a country and take it over. Since the inception of Germany as a nation they have failed every single time. They failed to even create proper colonies back when Queen Vic was turning herself into a lard ball due to just how easy colonialisation was. They failed twice to do it militarily. They failed in their policy of expansion into Russia, every time and have been halted yet again. Their automotive industry boldly marched into China devoutly believing they were going to teach those little Chinese folk a lesson or two and rip the cash out from the dumb locals only to have been completely out smarted by the Chinese and now their automotive industry is at the start of being ripped a new one on their home turf!!! Siemens and VW are trying to pull the same stunt down in Chile. Strip the inferior Chileans of all their wind energy capability and ship it to Germany to keep the lights on in their 20th century dirty factories. They will fail at that as they have failed every time since 1871. Even within Europe their subservient vassal states which they have been asset stripping for decades are now fighting back.
The simple truth is that nothing at all has changed. If you cannot produce enough energy domestically then you are f
ked. It's that simple. And the shift from fossil fuel to renewable is going to create new winners and finish off some incumbent energy weaklings who fail to adapt to be a non self sufficient energy economy. And through a quirk of fate the U.K. could even do that having de-industrialised 30 years ago. Not being energy self sufficient isn't even the big issue that it would be for nations with an excess of heavy industry. PushedDover said:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilverstein/2024/0...
Green Hydrogen Will Become The 21st Century Version Of Oil
And yet...Green Hydrogen Will Become The 21st Century Version Of Oil
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/production/nobody-...
The problem with many of the commentators in this industry is that they simply do not understand or choose to ignore that effective decarbonisation and pathway energy efficiency have an unbreakable bond.
Hardly anybody talks about fossil fuel efficiencies, simply because they never had to, it was a case of just drill it out of the ground and burn it, simples.
Applying that same ignorance/ambivalence to renewables is almost 100% guaranteed to lead you into a dead end.
The cost of the infrastructure, the cost of operating it, the materials required, the lifetime carbon footprint, they are all intrinsically defined by how much energy is wasted along the way. Pathway efficiency is the primary driver for successful, affordable decarbonisation.
Everything else is secondary.
Electrolysers and compressors are expensive to build and run, that won't change, ever.
Green hydrogen is an expensive and exclusive product.
It can't, and will not, solve mass market energy challenges globally.
Blue hydrogen is snake oil, white hydrogen is for the dreamers.
Use hydrogen where it makes sense, it's time to bin this panacea nonsense.
BTW, that website gives a much more balanced warts and all 'insight' into the real state of affairs for the use of hydrogen in various energy sectors.
The prospects for road transportation are looking particularly grim.
Evanivitch said:
CCGT, condensing boilers, ICE fuel efficiency, billions in hi bypass turbo fan research R&D. Eh?
Fair enough, if you work in the industry or have an interest in the engineering then yes. Does average Joe know exactly much fuel goes to waste heat for their cars or boilers, or the average carbon intensity of gas-fired generation, then no.
Of all the people I speak to who get overly excited about the prospect of hydrogen (usually thinking it's a direct replacement for oil and gas as per the article) I can't recall any who had any reference points or understanding of the pathway efficiencies at play.
We've also had posters in this sub-forum arguing that the only factor that affects a vehicles energy consumption is its 'weight' i.e. mass, and resolutely refused to accept that there was such a thing as kinetic energy recovery or even the concept of efficiency itself.
tamore said:
it's the politicians who throw green hydrogen and CCS around as magic wand solutions without breaking stride that makes me laugh. both monumental undertakings and so far from a silver bullet panacea. oh, and completely unproven at scale.
Let's wait and see how interested industry or the road sector are on any colour hydrogen - once they've all adapted and found ways to use plain old electricity, without needing to use it to complete a heavy and tedious chemical process...GT9 said:
Fair enough, if you work in the industry or have an interest in the engineering then yes.
Does average Joe know exactly much fuel goes to waste heat for their cars or boilers, or the average carbon intensity of gas-fired generation, then no.
I'm pretty sure they mostly care a out the price of heating their home, flights and electricity bill. Running OCGT as baseload would add significantly to the average household bill.Does average Joe know exactly much fuel goes to waste heat for their cars or boilers, or the average carbon intensity of gas-fired generation, then no.
Is this thread not about The Windfarm ?
We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
PushedDover said:
Is this thread not about The Windfarm ?
We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
how is progress going in doggerland? has the weather settled a bit and equipment constraints sorted?We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
tamore said:
PushedDover said:
Is this thread not about The Windfarm ?
We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
how is progress going in doggerland? has the weather settled a bit and equipment constraints sorted?We have the Turbo mantra Climate Change Political Thread, and we have the ‘ THE FUTURE OF POWER GENERATION IN GREAT BRITAIN’ thread too
More likely locations for the Hydrogen debate - and I am aware that I have added propellant to the H2 conversation here myself
Vessels are busy out there (found this neat Gif someone clever made )
Apols ^^^ to big and you need to click to see in motion.
But progress of the actual turbines remains slower than normal. There is talk of a secondary WTIV coming in to help catch up through the summer months.
They start on the foundation installations on Doggerbank B too.
Edited by PushedDover on Saturday 23 March 12:42
plfrench said:
What's the significance of the wave heights above 4m causing the outer circle to go red? Does that mean having to stop generation?
Generation is still a pipe dream 
What you saw in the gif was all the various vessels activities racing around the site to build it (go look on MarineTraffic.com and zoom in on the area)
Cable layers, rock dumpers, foundation installation, turbines, BOP, commissioning etc
An Armanda
The colour changing of the perimeter, reaching red, shows the waves impacting on any meaningful construction - too hard for the vessels to either / or hold position, be stable to lift or transfer personnel on the 3D walk to work systems or as is usually the case, wave is coupled with wind.
Above 18 or 20ms personnel are not able to work on the whole in the towers. Job stops.
plfrench said:
Got it 
I thought they had connected a few turbines back end of last year? Or does that just mean they’re ready to start generating and have been tested etc, but not yet actively generating?
Very close to that ^^^I thought they had connected a few turbines back end of last year? Or does that just mean they’re ready to start generating and have been tested etc, but not yet actively generating?
It’s more about final fix equivalent and official handover of the dozen or so turbines from the GE commissioning team, to the ‘Project / Owner’
eldar said:
DonkeyApple said:
Or we just chill and wait 10 years for the cause of the problem to pass away. Besides, offshore wind farms are a testament to what can be achieved when there aren't people to endlessly complain about those getting on with delivering the future needs.
Quite, NIMBY fish don't have much influence.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff