Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)
Discussion
BigMon said:
Whoever gets elected will probably not make a great deal of difference either way. We are stuck in a general malaise as a nation and I've not seen anyone give concrete ideas about how we get out.
Nail on head & anyone expecting or hoping that any government of any colour is going to dig us out of our hole is in for a long wait and a great deal of disappointment.MC Bodge said:
Wombat3 said:
Nail on head & anyone expecting or hoping that any government of any colour is going to dig us out of our hole is in for a long wait and a great deal of disappointment.
But they won't be the spectacularly awful Tories that we have had to tolerate.(Behaviour is a different problem).
turbobloke said:
Based on evidence on the record and iiving / working / voting through the periods in question, it's absolutely not unsubstantiated.
IMF, winter of discontent, cash for honours, no money left, and the rest, it's a matter of record and experience.
Sadly in your case it’s a matter of unmitigated bias. Someone mentioned earlier that there’s little to choose between the two main parties when in power and up to 2016 I would agree with that. But if you’re seriously trying to claim that Labour have a monopoly on mismanaging the economy, dodgy honours lists and leaving no money in the pot then you need to educate yourself. IMF, winter of discontent, cash for honours, no money left, and the rest, it's a matter of record and experience.
I get you’re in a tribe and appreciate how difficult that must make things for you right now, especially as English doesn’t appear to be your first language, but take a step back and try to see things as others do. The Tories are just as culpable and given they’ve been in power more often and for longer their record is just as woeful, if not more so.
119 said:
So what are we reckoning on what Labours potential key achievable policies would be if they succeed?
The only two i can guess so far..
Ramp up the windfall tax on big corps.
VAT on uni fees.
Increase in benefitsThe only two i can guess so far..
Ramp up the windfall tax on big corps.
VAT on uni fees.
Rent controls
More red tape, although would be hard to beat the current lot
Increase in taxes to pay for th all this
And yet it's still more preferable to vote for them than the "it's not racist, just wrong" party.
Wombat3 said:
BigMon said:
Whoever gets elected will probably not make a great deal of difference either way. We are stuck in a general malaise as a nation and I've not seen anyone give concrete ideas about how we get out.
Nail on head & anyone expecting or hoping that any government of any colour is going to dig us out of our hole is in for a long wait and a great deal of disappointment.I don’t agree with the pessimism. I think we need realism.
Any government needs to choose what it prioritises.
We’ve had years of boosterism and underspending on services. All mouth and no trousers.
It can’t continue without revolt. Arguably for some a labour vote is a revolt but that’s a bit silly.
But the days of the tories claiming they’re spending on public services when their users are unable to avail of them seem to have reached a critical mass of bulls
t detection.It’s not that they’re unaffordable, it’s that the money goes elsewhere.
hidetheelephants said:
AstonZagato said:
S600BSB said:
But wouldn’t it be so wonderful if they would undo Brexit! Admit the huge mistake , suck it up and make you feel proud to be British again.
I’m no fan of Brexit but that was the result of a democratic vote. Labour lost the Red Wall because it tried to frustrate the will of the British people. So no, it would not be wonderful unless they had another referendum (and I dislike referenda too). Do the British people have the appetite for another referendum and an outcome that would mean losing the Pound? I’m not sure they do at the moment. Another 10 years maybe.
A party getting a majority in parliament do not win a majority of the votes cast (the Tories won a landslide with 43% of the votes in 2019). People vote for other issues in a general election - NHS, tax, benefits, defence, etc. To conflate votes cast on multiple issues as a clear mandate to overthrow a democratic majority decision is a terrible idea, IMHO. Arguably Brexit became an open sore in large part because large swathes of the British public across different political persuasions felt they had never been properly asked (combine that with politicians of every stripe using the EU as a convenient scapegoat and the EU acting in a high-handed manner at times). To unwind it without directly asking the question once more only will seed another possibly larger sore.
Therefore, crazy though it may sound, if one wants to unwind Brexit, one first has to ask the British people to vote solely on that issue.
MC Bodge said:
turbobloke said:
MC Bodge said:
Braverman appears to be widely regarded as an embarrassing politician with some weird, and very unpleasant, views.
On the BBC, in The Guardian, the Mirror and from social media posts by government detractors, yes, but that's not Mr Mondeo Man or Ms Wolseley Woman. What's widely regarded needs to be something going beyond the right-on echo chamber.Some people disagree with Braverman's views for sure, that's a different matter and isn't the same as the vilification seen even in this thread. Responding to different viewpoints with intolerance is a curious phenomenon over on the 'tolerant Left' and might just be thst baseless sense of moral superiority shining through.
I would suggest that Nadine Dorries, Priti Patel and Braverman are amongst that rare breed of non-PM (sort of) female politicians that have become known in the mainstream, but not for good reasons.
Blue62 said:
Sadly in your case it’s a matter of unmitigated bias. Someone mentioned earlier that there’s little to choose between the two main parties when in power and up to 2016 I would agree with that. But if you’re seriously trying to claim that Labour have a monopoly on mismanaging the economy, dodgy honours lists and leaving no money in the pot then you need to educate yourself.
I get you’re in a tribe and appreciate how difficult that must make things for you right now, especially as English doesn’t appear to be your first language, but take a step back and try to see things as others do. The Tories are just as culpable and given they’ve been in power more often and for longer their record is just as woeful, if not more so.
TB always trots out the no money left one, a tradition started many years earlier by Tory treasurer Reggie Maudlin....and then has the gall to talk of tribalists.... I'm no Starmer fan and feel politically homeless but they've never provided a party I feel is deserving of my vote yet, so nae change for me...I get you’re in a tribe and appreciate how difficult that must make things for you right now, especially as English doesn’t appear to be your first language, but take a step back and try to see things as others do. The Tories are just as culpable and given they’ve been in power more often and for longer their record is just as woeful, if not more so.
S600BSB said:
Be even more disappointed if they lose Womble! I have said many times on these threads that the sheer scale of the mess the country is in after 14 years of this government means that there is no quick fix - going to take several parliaments and some super difficult decisions. But more of the same incompetence and dishonesty is simply not an option.
Say 14 years?bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Never hear a peep from you about the filth on the Abbott or Rayner threads do we Turbo.
Grow a pair and call some of that out and I might have a bit more time for all that word salad about poor misunderstood Braverman.
From your lofty position of chief commentator of politics on a motoring forum? Really Grow a pair and call some of that out and I might have a bit more time for all that word salad about poor misunderstood Braverman.
AstonZagato said:
Technically, you are right. Parliament is sovereign (though not quite so sovereign under the EU). I'm not here to argue for Brexit, far from it. However, it was a referendum that got us here and I believe that it will take a referendum to get us back in. The last time the British public were asked what they wanted, a clear majority wanted to leave. I think you ignore that at your peril. Indeed it led to Johnson getting a huge majority, which went well...
A party getting a majority in parliament do not win a majority of the votes cast (the Tories won a landslide with 43% of the votes in 2019). People vote for other issues in a general election - NHS, tax, benefits, defence, etc. To conflate votes cast on multiple issues as a clear mandate to overthrow a democratic majority decision is a terrible idea, IMHO. Arguably Brexit became an open sore in large part because large swathes of the British public across different political persuasions felt they had never been properly asked (combine that with politicians of every stripe using the EU as a convenient scapegoat and the EU acting in a high-handed manner at times). To unwind it without directly asking the question once more only will seed another possibly larger sore.
Therefore, crazy though it may sound, if one wants to unwind Brexit, one first has to ask the British people to vote solely on that issue.
Seeking to renegotiate a sA party getting a majority in parliament do not win a majority of the votes cast (the Tories won a landslide with 43% of the votes in 2019). People vote for other issues in a general election - NHS, tax, benefits, defence, etc. To conflate votes cast on multiple issues as a clear mandate to overthrow a democratic majority decision is a terrible idea, IMHO. Arguably Brexit became an open sore in large part because large swathes of the British public across different political persuasions felt they had never been properly asked (combine that with politicians of every stripe using the EU as a convenient scapegoat and the EU acting in a high-handed manner at times). To unwind it without directly asking the question once more only will seed another possibly larger sore.
Therefore, crazy though it may sound, if one wants to unwind Brexit, one first has to ask the British people to vote solely on that issue.
tty agreement doesn't mean rejoining the EU so there is no issue.hidetheelephants said:
AstonZagato said:
Technically, you are right. Parliament is sovereign (though not quite so sovereign under the EU). I'm not here to argue for Brexit, far from it. However, it was a referendum that got us here and I believe that it will take a referendum to get us back in. The last time the British public were asked what they wanted, a clear majority wanted to leave. I think you ignore that at your peril. Indeed it led to Johnson getting a huge majority, which went well...
A party getting a majority in parliament do not win a majority of the votes cast (the Tories won a landslide with 43% of the votes in 2019). People vote for other issues in a general election - NHS, tax, benefits, defence, etc. To conflate votes cast on multiple issues as a clear mandate to overthrow a democratic majority decision is a terrible idea, IMHO. Arguably Brexit became an open sore in large part because large swathes of the British public across different political persuasions felt they had never been properly asked (combine that with politicians of every stripe using the EU as a convenient scapegoat and the EU acting in a high-handed manner at times). To unwind it without directly asking the question once more only will seed another possibly larger sore.
Therefore, crazy though it may sound, if one wants to unwind Brexit, one first has to ask the British people to vote solely on that issue.
Seeking to renegotiate a sA party getting a majority in parliament do not win a majority of the votes cast (the Tories won a landslide with 43% of the votes in 2019). People vote for other issues in a general election - NHS, tax, benefits, defence, etc. To conflate votes cast on multiple issues as a clear mandate to overthrow a democratic majority decision is a terrible idea, IMHO. Arguably Brexit became an open sore in large part because large swathes of the British public across different political persuasions felt they had never been properly asked (combine that with politicians of every stripe using the EU as a convenient scapegoat and the EU acting in a high-handed manner at times). To unwind it without directly asking the question once more only will seed another possibly larger sore.
Therefore, crazy though it may sound, if one wants to unwind Brexit, one first has to ask the British people to vote solely on that issue.
tty agreement doesn't mean rejoining the EU so there is no issue.biggbn said:
TB always trots out the no money left one, a tradition started many years earlier by Tory treasurer Reggie Maudlin....and then has the gall to talk of tribalists.... I'm no Starmer fan and feel politically homeless but they've never provided a party I feel is deserving of my vote yet, so nae change for me...
"deserving of my vote" interests me. What would it take and is it a realistic expectation given the current electoral system?We all hold our noses and vote for the least worst evil sometimes. I've met the odd party zealot but they're a rarity in real life.
I have no problem with tactical voting given the current setup. I live in a so called safe seat with an MP I wouldn't vote for. I want them out. I've preferences for a no hoper. So do I just abstain or do I go to the booth?
I'll go to the booth and vote tactically. I'd recommend everyone goes to the booth no matter how they vote. There's a reason one party brought in voter ID, they don't want everyone to vote.
But I'm interested in your opinion.
119 said:
So what are we reckoning on what Labours potential key achievable policies would be if they succeed?
The only two i can guess so far..
Ramp up the windfall tax on big corps.
VAT on uni fees.
If you are referring to the energy companies then I imagine we will see a faster winding down of the sector, if what they propose is brought in. Net result would likely be little overall new revenue as a result within a few years. Longer term we would be more exposed to market shocks, with all the economic implications and potential government support for households arising, resulting in a poorer fiscal position not better.The only two i can guess so far..
Ramp up the windfall tax on big corps.
VAT on uni fees.
At least they seem to have stopped stating that they will levy the tax on worldwide profits.
Vanden Saab said:
S600BSB said:
Be even more disappointed if they lose Womble! I have said many times on these threads that the sheer scale of the mess the country is in after 14 years of this government means that there is no quick fix - going to take several parliaments and some super difficult decisions. But more of the same incompetence and dishonesty is simply not an option.
Say 14 years?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff